POKERPRO

Has anybody tried out Pokerpro yet?
The poker table without dealers or chips, but with tabletop screens?
Some UK casino's already have them up and running.

I guess you have not heard of it yet.

http://http://www.pokertek.com/table.html

I personally think that this table is another pointless invention because with the computer screens it's just like playing online except you would get a few more tells.

But it would be interesting to see what other peoples opinions are.

Hey Zin...nah, haven't really heard anything about it and sure as heck haven't used it.

I have certainly heard of it, ZZ, but didn`t know it was already in use in the UK.

In truth, I barely play live any more, thanks to the ease and availability of online games. A grand total of once in the last two years, plus a half-dozen home games. So, I am far from being up to date on the B&M scene.

Yeah they are using them at Aspers in Newcastle and Laddies in Paddington.
Antonio Esfandiari reckons its the future of poker but to be honest, not too much he has to say excites me.
One of the plus sides to it for those that crave action is that you get to play about 50% more hands per hour then you would with a human dealer.

We have one setup in our innovation center at work. We're thinking about putting them in to our pubs, casinos and community gaming centers. I'd love to see one put in a local pub just to see how it does.

We're concerned about security issues though as we don't want the pub owners to have to deal with bad beat disputes etc.

I've used it a bit and like the idea. Playing online is great but I prefer a live game. However, they're not always easy to find. If a bunch of local pubs had these, it would be easy to find a live game.

Rab

Indeed it would be easier to find a live game Rab, I am unsure of how much the payments/gambling laws would stick their noses into it though.
From what I gather you can get a game started with just 2 players so that is a plus.

I'm just a little confused as to what exactly this is. Is this something where the players are in the same locale, except view their cards on a screen (i.e. virtually) versus real cards with an actual dealer?

Yes, its a flat top glass table that up to 10 players can participate in.
You pay your buy in via card into a slot for the value you need or wish to have.
Its electronic and works by touch screen sensitive means, its a live game without a dealer.
You can even conceal your hole cards with your hands ( each player has an individual screen ) and is recommended as it appears it is quite easy to see your near opponents hand otherwise.
There is a community screen in the middle of the table just like at any game.

Try this link
pokertek.com

My mind boggles at the posibilities.
With no cash on the table, and no cards, it could be any game. This would allow clandestine games to be played anywhere, anytime. At the flip of a switch, it could change to a game of old maid. Helpful if the heat appears.

I love your thought proccess DJ please have a plus rep.

This is a new concept to me…never heard of it before. So, thanks to Stormy, I visited the website to see these new tables…and I have some thoughts:

Pros:

1) You will be able to play more hands per hour.
2) You only need two players to start a table…less waiting.
3) It will cut down on dealer/player errors such as miscounts, flipped cards, playing out of turn.
4) Did I mention that you will be able to play more hands per hour?

Cons:

1) You will be able to lose more hands per hour.
2) There will be fingerprints all over those screens…hey, could they use Nintendo controllers?
3) You will lose the ambiance of the ‘ole paper and clay.
4) Will other players be able to glimpse your hole cards more easily?
5) What if someone accidentally kicks out the electric plug?
6) What will the pros do with their hands and no chips?
7) Allins will be far less dramatic…chips falling off Ivey’s foot high stacks as he pushes allin.

Questions:

1) Will JuiceeQ’s email become JuiceeQ@TableSix.HiltonCasino?
2) Will ChuckTs be able to play WoW and Halo between hands?
3) Will Paulsson go on tilt because of those annoying popups promoting Harry and the Crooners in the Asian Lounge?
4) Will Coryan show up in his wife’s pink bathrobe…just like home?

I know when the invention of these things was first announced, the concern was that they would spread very rapidly.

From the standpoint of the cardroom/casino/whatever they are mega-attractive. Unlike human dealers, they don`t need a salary or a day off and they never get tired.

Although, as others have said here, they do have some advantages, this is surely a bad thing overall. What happened to the character of the game ?

That died many moons ago Eggy.

If it floods the pub market then it is fair game like any other touch screen machine from the past.
The fact that it incorporates up to nine other users against each other ups the interest.
If I stagger in to a pub near by and i see it in operation there is only one thing I will say after who tripped me over, and that is, deal me in.

I think if they are confined to pubs and similar places which do not currently employ a dealer and would not otherwise have a poker game, then that is fair enough. They offer an additional option, and if you don`t want to play you don`t have to.

My concern is that they might replace real dealers in existing cardrooms. I don`t feel that would be welcome at all.

I had heard about these and they where 'supposedly' going down a treat in the old US.

Aren't we all becoming a plugged in society now, sitting around the same table playing the same game against each other, pressing the screen after swiping your card to start.

Isnt it all a bit silly - just buy a pack of cards

We're putting three of these in the field this month. Unfortunately, they are going into casinos. I was really hoping they'd try them out in the pubs instead.

I'd rather they keep them out of casinos as I would hate to see a move way from a traditional dealer and clay chips. That's part of what makes life games so much more fun.

They have the PokerPros at the Hardrock Casino in Tampa,Fla. I've played them a couple of times. No dealers etc... The chips and cards are on the computer screens.. if you are use to live action tables its harder to read the players..its almost like playing at home.

That's what I was afraid of.

The character OF the game changed to be the character IN the game.

Playing live with a dealer is way better, Its more fun even if there fuss and there stories to tell. Even though i like technology its everywhere these day i want to keep whats human, human. I also love the feel of the cards and the chip its part of the game.

I hope the rake will be a lot lower without live dealer.
Another problem is the game can be rigged easily now.

Well, this is an old thread, but it's definitely a topic worth discussing. A lot has changed in the last year, but as far as automated poker tables go it appears that PokerPro is still the best table. They are made by PokerTech and now distributed by Aristocrat, as far as I know. I have played on a Lightning Poker table (distributed by Shufflemaster), and the software and operation is far inferior to that of the PokerPro table. I have also had reports of other tables that are inferior to the PokerPro model.

I've spent several nights playing on a PokerPro table at a casino in Europe, and there are a lot of situations where it is much better than having a live dealer OR playing online. I will list a few of the likes and dislikes I have for the table, but I was mainly interested in seeing what problems other players or operators are experiencing with these tables.

Pros:
Just like any B&M poker room, you get to play against players that wouldn't normally be playing online. Playing online now requires a cash holdings account, or credit cards, etc, and this allows players to jump right into poker without the hassle of online money transactions. This table offers less overhead than a normal poker table, so it can be added to any location. It can also be licensed as an automated machine (like a slot machine) in some jurisdictions, so that can make it easier to legally operate. There are no dealers to train and/or schedule, no set hours for a game, no mistakes, and most importantly:

The game is faster than at a normal table. You can expect 50-100% more hands per hour. This is good, so long as you are one of the better players at the table. And if it’s at a casino, then hopefully you can play better than some of the gamblers that wander over from roulette.

The software is good. It allows you to quickly make a bet of any size, call, or fold, and even has a few “extras” like the ability to show & fold, show one or both of your cards if you win with no showdown, and more.

Cons:
Casino owners think these tables can run themselves, but they can’t. A cashier is required to deposit money onto the cards, and they have to learn the software in order to do it. (This requires a cashier that speaks English, which is obviously isn’t common at small casinos or pubs outside the UK.) So basically, the cards are frequently set up with the wrong player names, etc. But at least they know how to make deposits and withdrawals. That’s what cashiers do best. J

The software is buggy, and handles waiting lists poorly, so a “game host” is really required to make sure the game runs smoothly and people aren’t fighting over who gets the next open seat. On that topic, a tech support person is also required, because the software isn’t 100% stable. For example, if you kick the table or give it a good pounding, it will pause the game (thinking that one of the panels has been opened.) This requires somebody to go press a “resume” button on the server computer. This is surprisingly difficult to do for somebody who doesn’t know computers. I have seen hands aborted in the middle of the hand by accident, and I have seen them resumed normally. An on-call tech support person is really a must for these tables, because they are so complex that it can take hours for a non-technical person to fix a problem over the phone with PokerPro tech support.

The price tag is huge. As there are no real competitors, PokerPro looks to be trying to recoup a lot of the development costs as fast as possible. The hardware is not terribly special, but they are still charging over 100,000 euros for a table. And even if purchased outright, there is a monthly fee. The other option is to pay rental on a per-month basis of several thousand euros per month (I heard around 6k eur/mo), and I don’t think a lot of operators can afford that kind of a rental fee while trying to build a regular game. This table will need to be competitive with B&M poker rooms that charge just a few euros rake per hand, and that could be tough to do if the game doesn’t run for at least 8 hours per night.

Lately, I have seen problems getting the table up and running. Blue screens of death (crashes) are happening more and more frequently, and this is dropping the table up-time below 80% for the last week. I think this is due to faulty software or hardware conflicts with Windows (yes, it runs on Windows), or something of that nature. At a recent gaming expo in the UK, they demonstrated a new version of the software – which I hope will be more reliable. I have yet to see a working multi-table tournament, but sit & go tournaments seem to work very well.

In summary, I think the table is a big plus to spreading poker around the world, especially to small locations. Casinos can essentially open a small poker room while avoiding a lot of the problems that are created by running a live game. If a couple of the frequent players are trained on the operation of the table, they could certainly “host” the game and play in it at the same time. (As prop players, or whatever.) The games are very configurable as far as rake goes, rules of the game, etc. Hopefully the price of the table will drop and more operators will see this as a good way to open a new poker room, especially in location where there are no poker rooms. The best thing that this tables can do is to start poker games in locations where there are no skilled dealers or poker room managers.

DWizard

I wanted to take a moment to answer a few legitimate question that have been asked.

Q: There will be fingerprints all over those screens…hey, could they use Nintendo controllers?

A: Yes, the screens get dirty. You should certainly clean it off before using it then licking your fingers. These are actually some of the worst touch-screens I have used. They are not very responsive to fingers touching them. It is almost required to use a fingernail, or a credit-card (PokerPro card), but I tend to use my PDA stylus. There are other touch-screen games I have played (Blackjack, roulette) that respond very well to just a touch from a fingertip, but apparently PokerPro decided to go with a less sensitive screen. The upside to this is that it is very hard to make a mistake and lose money by brushing the screen with your arm, etc. Most players tap the screen with the edge of their PokerPro card, and every action requires a confirmation tap as well. (2 taps to fold or call, more taps to bet more than the minimum.)

Q: Will other players be able to glimpse your hole cards more easily?

A: You must press the screen in a certain spot to reveal your cards. It is very easy to do this while concealing your cards with one or two hands. If you get lazy and start doing it with a card or fingertip, then the players next to you could potentially see your cards. At this point, you should tell them to stop peeking and they might not do it again.

Q: What if someone accidentally kicks out the electric plug?

A: The results of each hand are logged. I haven’t seen the unit lose power, but I believe it will go back to the start of the hand. The hand-in-progress will be lost, as far as I know. The unit is so big that normally a power cord will be wired under the floor to it. There is normally no way to kill the power to the table, short of killing the power to the casino.

Q: Allins will be far less dramatic…chips falling off Ivey’s foot high stacks as he pushes allin.

A: Allins are still quite dramatic on this game. There is more sound when more chips are bet. And the brightly colored 500 and 1000 chips tend to draw some attention. Big piles of virtual chips attract attention on the game. The designers have done a good job of maintaining this aspect.

Q: My concern is that they might replace real dealers in existing cardrooms. I don`t feel that would be welcome at all.

A: As far as I know, there is still a world-wide shortage of skilled poker dealers. I have seen so many bad dealers in so many places, it is ridiculous. The dealers in Los Angeles make a lot of money on tips, yet they still put newly-trained dealers to work too soon. There is a lot of dealer abuse at some of the LA poker rooms. Maybe if none of the highly-skilled dealers want to work there, then they should just replace all of the games with automated tables. Because having poor dealers does nobody any good. It just upsets players and loses potential revenue for the poker room.

Q: Another problem is the game can be rigged easily now.

A: It is MUCH easier to cheat at a normal poker table than at a PokerPro table. As mentioned in a separate post, PokerTech really has no interest in creating a rigged game. No more interest than every online poker site. They want to make big money from the rake, from selling more tables, etc, not from cheating players for small change. The number of ways to cheat another player at a normal poker game is countless. If the dealer is in on the hustle (at a high-stakes game), the cheaters will always win. Playing at a PokerPro table is a great way to avoid most forms of other players cheating. One common way they do this is by signaling other players with the position of their chips, cards, hands, etc. Removing these variables, they are limited to signaling other players verbally, with their hands, other items, or maybe with the amount of time it takes them to make their action. “If I raise 3x with exactly 10 seconds left on my timer, then I have AA.” But it’s going to be tough to develop a system for the rest of the hands you want to signal. If you can devise a way to use the table to collude with another player or players, I’d be interested in hearing your ideas.

If anybody else has questions that I could answer about this table, please ask! (And send me a private message so I don’t miss your post.

DWizard