Poker Standout Rips Cops After Bust !!

#1 12th September 2007, 12:47 PM

Hi all,
Copied this from AOL news this morning:

[MEDIA]RALEIGH, N.C. (Sept. 12) - A poker champion cited on a misdemeanor gambling charge in a weekend raid on a clandestine casino said Tuesday that the police could have been more useful battling serious crime elsewhere.

Maciek "Michael" Gracz, 26, a World Series of Poker winner from Raleigh, said it was a waste of tax dollars for more than a dozen officers to spend about eight hours at the scene Saturday night and early Sunday.

"They could go catch sexual predators or something that has a real impact on society," he said. "If they had gotten two guys to come there, they could have asked us to leave the premises and we would have left.

"It is illegal in North Carolina, I understand that. In every state, whether it's legal or not, people are playing poker."

Gracz said it's silly that he can't play poker in North Carolina when he can travel just a few hours and play legally elsewhere. Gracz won $1.5 million during a cruise at the PartyPoker.com Million Tournament in 2005. He also writes poker tips on CBS Sportsline.com and his own Web site.

Officials said the operation was sophisticated. The plain, one-story building off N.C. Highway 242 near Benson was surrounded by a fence, had pro-style gaming tables and a kitchen and food staff. Agents seized about $70,000 in cash.

"This wasn't a basement card game," said Pat Forbis, a supervisory agent of the state Division of Alcohol Law Enforcement, describing it as "a small version of a Las Vegas or Atlantic City casino. It was all top-of-the-line stuff."

Forbis said 60 people were charged with engaging in a game of chance, or gambling, and 11 were charged with operating a game of chance.

"The point is it is illegal," he said. "The analogy is if you catch someone smoking marijuana they say why aren't you trying to get a coke or heroin dealer. The law is the law and it's not up to ALE to systematically chose the laws we enforce."

Gracz said he believes poker isn't a game of chance but "is a game of skill over a long period of time."

He cited the case of William E. "Billy" Baxter, whose appeal against the IRS resulted in the 1986 Nevada federal court ruling that his earnings should be taxed as earned income instead of higher-bracket unearned income.

In that case, U.S. District Judge Bruce Thompson of Reno, Nev., said Baxter used "extraordinary poker skills" to earn $1.25 million from 1978 to 1981.

It's different in North Carolina, where the state Court of Appeals ruled in May that poker is a game of chance. The ruling came in the case of a man who wanted to open a poker club in Durham.

"Although skills such as knowledge of human psychology, bluffing, and the ability to calculate and analyze odds make it more likely for skilled players to defeat novices, novices may yet prevail with a simple run of luck," the appeals opinion said. "No amount of skill can change a deuce into an ace."

Tony

[/MEDIA]

#2 12th September 2007, 12:53 PM

RALEIGH, N.C. (Sept. 12) - A poker champion cited on a misdemeanor gambling charge in a weekend raid on a clandestine casino said Tuesday that the police could have been more useful battling serious crime elsewhere.

Maciek "Michael" Gracz, 26, a World Series of Poker winner from Raleigh, said it was a waste of tax dollars for more than a dozen officers to spend about eight hours at the scene Saturday night and early Sunday.

"They could go catch sexual predators or something that has a real impact on society," he said. "If they had gotten two guys to come there, they could have asked us to leave the premises and we would have left.

"It is illegal in North Carolina, I understand that. In every state, whether it's legal or not, people are playing poker."

Gracz said it's silly that he can't play poker in North Carolina when he can travel just a few hours and play legally elsewhere. Gracz won $1.5 million during a cruise at the PartyPoker.com Million Tournament in 2005. He also writes poker tips on CBS Sportsline.com and his own Web site.

Officials said the operation was sophisticated. The plain, one-story building off N.C. Highway 242 near Benson was surrounded by a fence, had pro-style gaming tables and a kitchen and food staff. Agents seized about $70,000 in cash.

"This wasn't a basement card game," said Pat Forbis, a supervisory agent of the state Division of Alcohol Law Enforcement, describing it as "a small version of a Las Vegas or Atlantic City casino. It was all top-of-the-line stuff."

Forbis said 60 people were charged with engaging in a game of chance, or gambling, and 11 were charged with operating a game of chance.

"The point is it is illegal," he said. "The analogy is if you catch someone smoking marijuana they say why aren't you trying to get a coke or heroin dealer. The law is the law and it's not up to ALE to systematically chose the laws we enforce."

Gracz said he believes poker isn't a game of chance but "is a game of skill over a long period of time."

He cited the case of William E. "Billy" Baxter, whose appeal against the IRS resulted in the 1986 Nevada federal court ruling that his earnings should be taxed as earned income instead of higher-bracket unearned income.

In that case, U.S. District Judge Bruce Thompson of Reno, Nev., said Baxter used "extraordinary poker skills" to earn $1.25 million from 1978 to 1981.

It's different in North Carolina, where the state Court of Appeals ruled in May that poker is a game of chance. The ruling came in the case of a man who wanted to open a poker club in Durham.

"Although skills such as knowledge of human psychology, bluffing, and the ability to calculate and analyze odds make it more likely for skilled players to defeat novices, novices may yet prevail with a simple run of luck," the appeals opinion said. "No amount of skill can change a deuce into an ace."

#3 12th September 2007, 12:56 PM

Sorry about that huuge text, I don't know how to make it smaller, can you help mods, would make it easier for people to read, I tried editing it the first time but it just disappeared, thought it would make an interesting thread for comments.

Tony

#4 12th September 2007, 1:08 PM

RALEIGH, N.C. (Sept. 12) - A poker champion cited on a misdemeanor gambling charge in a weekend raid on a clandestine casino said Tuesday that the police could have been more useful battling serious crime elsewhere.

Maciek "Michael" Gracz, 26, a World Series of Poker winner from Raleigh, said it was a waste of tax dollars for more than a dozen officers to spend about eight hours at the scene Saturday night and early Sunday.

"They could go catch sexual predators or something that has a real impact on society," he said. "If they had gotten two guys to come there, they could have asked us to leave the premises and we would have left.

"It is illegal in North Carolina, I understand that. In every state, whether it's legal or not, people are playing poker."

Gracz said it's silly that he can't play poker in North Carolina when he can travel just a few hours and play legally elsewhere. Gracz won $1.5 million during a cruise at the PartyPoker.com Million Tournament in 2005. He also writes poker tips on CBS Sportsline.com and his own Web site.

Officials said the operation was sophisticated. The plain, one-story building off N.C. Highway 242 near Benson was surrounded by a fence, had pro-style gaming tables and a kitchen and food staff. Agents seized about $70,000 in cash.

"This wasn't a basement card game," said Pat Forbis, a supervisory agent of the state Division of Alcohol Law Enforcement, describing it as "a small version of a Las Vegas or Atlantic City casino. It was all top-of-the-line stuff."

Forbis said 60 people were charged with engaging in a game of chance, or gambling, and 11 were charged with operating a game of chance.

"The point is it is illegal," he said. "The analogy is if you catch someone smoking marijuana they say why aren't you trying to get a coke or heroin dealer. The law is the law and it's not up to ALE to systematically chose the laws we enforce."

Gracz said he believes poker isn't a game of chance but "is a game of skill over a long period of time."

He cited the case of William E. "Billy" Baxter, whose appeal against the IRS resulted in the 1986 Nevada federal court ruling that his earnings should be taxed as earned income instead of higher-bracket unearned income.

In that case, U.S. District Judge Bruce Thompson of Reno, Nev., said Baxter used "extraordinary poker skills" to earn $1.25 million from 1978 to 1981.

It's different in North Carolina, where the state Court of Appeals ruled in May that poker is a game of chance. The ruling came in the case of a man who wanted to open a poker club in Durham.

"Although skills such as knowledge of human psychology, bluffing, and the ability to calculate and analyze odds make it more likely for skilled players to defeat novices, novices may yet prevail with a simple run of luck," the appeals opinion said. "No amount of skill can change a deuce into an ace."

#5 12th September 2007, 1:49 PM

Thanks Effexor for getting that so it's readable, I can't edit my post now so if any mods are checking please delete that BIG post for me, thankyou in advance. This is kind of spoiling the thread now.

Tony

#6 12th September 2007, 2:32 PM

I had just finished reading the story on AOL. Did you see the poll the are taking?
Do you agree with Gracz's point of view?
Yes64% No32% I'm not sure4%

Total Votes: 73,867

Which is the more important component in poker?
Skill61% Chance33% I don't know6%

Total Votes: 66,865

#7 12th September 2007, 3:06 PM

So, why is it illegal for guys to sit in a small building behind a fence and play cards? And how did the cops even know that they were playing poker? And how many violent crimes were comitted in the area in the time that the police were stopping these people from "playing a game of chance"?

#8 12th September 2007, 4:10 PM

Hi all,
I'm still confused why some states it is illegal to gamble or play poker while in other states it is perfectly legal. My view would be a country is a country and the law is the law, when you start making different laws for different parts of a country your sort of segregating, if you want to join the armed forces you fight for your country not just your state, if something is legal it should be legal throughout the whole country, if something is illegal then it should be illegal throughout the whole country no?
That's one argument anyway, this kind of thing would be unheard of in other countries.
I would have liked to see Gracz argue more along the lines of the fact the poker is a game of skill rather than focus on what the police could have been doing elsewhere, people try to use that argument a lot and it never works, a crime is a crime no matter how small. He shouldv'e been arguing more about why poker should not come under the category of gambling, probably could have got a lawyer to drop the charges.
Would I be right in thinking this is the biggest arrest involving poker play? 60 people being charged? This might not be a bad thing if it gets a lot of publicity, it would be a refreshing change to see some of the pro's arguing the fact that poker is a game of skill and not luck on tv/press. I don't think enough people are getting involved and while that is the case the law isn't going to change.
Maybe in a couple of years Phil Hellmuth could run for president then we wouldn't have to worry.......Nahhh
Tony

#9 12th September 2007, 5:45 PM

C'mon guys, I do not even live and the states and I know the answer to this one. States are free to regulate or not regulate anything that isn't mentionned in the constitution (and gambling isn't). This is why there had to be an amendment to the Constitution to enforce prohibition everywhere.

It has nothing to do with segragation and everything to do with states rights.

Plus, police officers don't have to power to enforce law at their discretion and I'm very happy they do not. Can you imagine if they did ? Get mugged by the sherrif's cousin ? Well we have drug dealers and murderers to arrest son just take aspirin... Operating a gambling ring is illegal in NC, period. The argument of "WAH! I'm so far away from AC or Vegas or CA" : you're free to move to whatever states you want if you're not okay with current legislation. Also, police usually doesn't bother with small games in private houses: this sounds more like a poker club disguised as a home game (taking rake to pay for food, drinks, etc.), what with seizing 70k in cash and having 11 people arrested for running the thing. 11!

#10 12th September 2007, 7:15 PM

why is it illegal for guys to sit in a small building behind a fence and play cards?
because the world has always had a small number of folks who believe they have the right to tell you how to live your life.
the only laws regulating morality that have ever made any sense are the 10 commandents...pretty sensible for society to function if we do not murder, steal, drool over someone else's spouse etc.
unfortunately, these few "do-gooders" always seem to be far more dedicated than the rest of us...we are the majority and the best way to change bad law is to lobby your representatives for good law (the kind that does not step on everyone's toes), so get busy

#11 12th September 2007, 8:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by always2away

why is it illegal for guys to sit in a small building behind a fence and play cards?

The same reason casinos make billions of dollars a year.

#12 12th September 2007, 9:51 PM

Sorry, I could only read seventy point font when I was in first grade.

#13 13th September 2007, 2:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by always2away

why is it illegal for guys to sit in a small building behind a fence and play cards?

A couple of reasons come to mind:

- It's not regulated, so there's nothing to stop people getting cheated, and no recourse if somebody is cheated
- It's probably not getting taxed properly either

A home game is one thing, but an organised-yet-unregulated club is another altogether. I know that poker has a grand tradition of this sort of stuff, but if you want some reasons there they are. The first point in particular should be of concern to players.

#14 14th September 2007, 9:45 PM

Why can't you go to a casino in New Reno and can't in Vault City? Because the US is still US even after the nuclear bombs dropped...

Or maybe I've been playing too much Fallout 2 lately....

#15 15th September 2007, 1:58 AM

If you haven't done so already then I suggest everyone to join the Poker Players Alliance: Fight for Poker to help keep poker legal in the USA!

#16 15th September 2007, 2:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by always2away

the only laws regulating morality that have ever made any sense are the 10 commandents...pretty sensible for society to function if we do not murder, steal, drool over someone else's spouse etc.

No body is going to tell me when and where I can drool dog gone it!!

#17 15th September 2007, 4:43 AM

We can just look at this one way. If the Government is not getting their piece of the pie its illegal.

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