Poker Fundamentals down, Looking to take the next step

#1 7th July 2009, 12:33 AM

I've been playing poker for the past 6 months (roughly) and have been gradually improving my game. Recently, I feel that I have mastered the fundamentals, the building blocks of poker that any aspiring player needs to succeed.

However, now that I am looking to take my game to the next level I need help understanding and applying "2nd level thinking" poker concepts that are critical to have as you move up in stakes.

So, I will be posting 5 replies directly below, each with a separate concept that I need assistance on. I greatly appreciate help on any questions you feel qualified to answer.

1. C-bets
2. 3-bets
3. Applying villian ranges to specific hands.
4. When to bluff
5. Laying down made hands

If I can patch up these leaks I really feel like I'll be moving up in stakes quick.

C-bets

To start things off, yes I know what a c-bet is and yes I understand the concept behind it. A c-bet gives you fold equity as well as masks the difference between your made hands and missed hands and draws. This often causes villians to play against you when they often shouldn't.

Although I understand the concept of the c-bet i'm not too sure I am successfully applying it, and as a result this may be a leak. I often hear people saying the c-bet between 60%-90% of the time. This seems to correlate well, considering people miss the flop 1/3 of the time.

1. Should my c-betting be directly related to the cards on the board? I understand I should be c-betting with overcards, etc.

2. How should I handle c-betting in a multi-way pot?

3. When should I not be c-betting?

4. How should my image/opponents hud affect my decision?

Overall, I feel like my c-bets aren't as effective as they should be (at 10nl). I'm either getting floated or people have solid hands and I feel double barrelling is an even bigger leak in my game, so i've stopped that almost all together.

3-bets

1. Should I only be 3-betting in position?
2. When is it better to just flat call?
3. How should I react to opponents 3-bets? when should I call, when should I fold?

Applying villains range to specific hands

I feel like this may be one of my biggest issues. Pre-flop I use the hud ranges a lot, and I often adjust my range and decisions based on that. Post-flop, however, I really don't feel like i'm using these stats effectively. How do you use your hud to make post-flop decisions?

When to bluff/float

I feel like most of the time i'm bluffing based on how I read a villians strength through his actions, rather than basing it off of the board. Any advice here?

Also, when should I read other peoples bluffs and be able to float it?

Laying down made hands

I can do this pretty easily If I have tptk and I feel like someone hit their straight or flush draw. However, I feel like i'm losing a lot of money to trips, etc.

Pot Control

Everyone says "big hand, big pots" "small hand, small pots" then I see "keep your bets standard, 2/3 the pot or you will invite in draws or show weakness" what gives?

#2 7th July 2009, 1:26 AM

I'll try to offer up some ideas on c-betting. I'm coming from a mainly live cash game background.

C-betting is a matter of personal style, you need to find what you are comfortable with. My advice here is it depends on who you are playing against, and who is in the hand with you. As you advance in poker you have to play the person more and more. Each person at the table is different and will act in their own unique ways. C-bets will be very profitable against tight players that give you credit and will not be as profitable against aggressive, looser, more creative players that will come over the top or float. For the most part, I'm not a big fan of c-betting too much of the time. Its noticeable, everyone knows about it and everyone does it, and good players will take advantage of it.

Position should play a large part in you decision making with c-bets. They are going to be much more profitable and easier to make when in position than when not.

You generally don't want to c-bet into a pot with a lot of people, its harder to assume that everyone else has missed when there are 4 players in a pot. It also sets you up for a check raise from anyone set mining in large pots that happen to hit.

Ideally you want a dangerous board, but not too dangerous. Lets say you open with AQ and the board is K,9,5. Its a decent board to C-bet when checked to in position. With the same hand if the board come K,J, 8 and theres two cards to a flush, it might not be the greatest to bet into. You should be a little more hesistant because you are more likely to get called, more draws, and possible hands.

#3 7th July 2009, 1:39 AM

Falian, be patient with this thread. You presented yourself extremely well here, seeking specific things, and this thread will likely generate a lot of great discussion. Many of our best posters are in Vegas at the moment, so the responses may seem thin, but hang in there.

I could give you responses that are more tourney centric, but I think I won't. There are subtle differences between ring and tourney, and you seem focused on ring. Even with 4 or 5 years now of online poker, I still consider myself to be a ring noob. Many of your questions will interest me and many of our tourney folk.

#4 7th July 2009, 4:51 AM

Thanks for the response so far. Here's an example that illustrates pretty much all my current issues:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) ($9.95)
UTG+1 ($9.20)
MP1 ($10.15)
MP2 ($11.20)
MP3 ($9.45)
CO ($3.65)
Button ($10)
SB ($10.10)
BB ($10)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

, A

Hero bets $0.40, 6 folds, SB calls $0.35, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.90) 8

, 4

, K

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.60, SB raises to $1.80, Hero calls $1.20

Turn: ($4.50) Q

(2 players)
SB bets $4, Hero raises to $7.75 (All-In), SB calls $3.75

River: ($20) 2

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $20 | Rake: $0.95

Results in white below:
SB had 6

, 7

(high card, King).
Hero had A

, A

(one pair, Aces).
Outcome: Hero won $19.05

Quick Background:

I got about 400 hands on this reg. Total nit, stats are like 8/6, low aggression factor. Obviously the flop raise looks like a bluff... I mean If I have a made hand i'm not trying to knock people off it.

#5 7th July 2009, 10:23 AM

About cbetting, watch Cotonseed's (Kyle Hendon) classroom video at stoxpoker.com . It's part of the free sample clips if you don't have a subscription there.

#6 7th July 2009, 7:45 PM

I would also strongly recommend the Harrington books. They cover alot of topics with examples and reasons for his actions. You might not agree with everything but it's a start till you build your own style.

#7 7th July 2009, 8:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falian

C-bets

1. Should my c-betting be directly related to the cards on the board? I understand I should be c-betting with overcards, etc.

Yes, but there are obvs. more factors then just the board to consider,like your cards, villain fold to c-bet% ect.

We should be c-betting the top and bottom of our range(along with draws) so AA on K92 board is a easy c-bet but so is a hand like 76 cause it has no value on this board, but a hand like TT our A9 on the same board we might want to check behind for pot control cause our hand has value.

We should be c-betting alot more dry flop then wet ones.

Good dry flops to c-bet would be something like 55K or 48Q rainbow.

2. How should I handle c-betting in a multi-way pot?

You should c-bet less with "bluffs" and more for value, by how much it should change totaly depends on villains in the hand.

3. When should I not be c-betting?

Kinda to general of question for a good response but for example KK hu on a A92 board IP we should be checking behind.

Also like 4way pot OOP with KQ on a 456ss board.

But like i said its to brought of a question.

4. How should my image/opponents hud affect my decision?

Massivly, if villain has 80% fold to c-bet you can just start c-betting every hand HU and just shut down if called if you dont have a monster and vice versa against some one with 30% fold to cbet you want to cbet more for value then semibluffs and bluffs.

Also if your playing super tight and think villains are noticing(make sure villains aint morons cause most players dont pay that much attention) you cant c-bet more of your range cause your range should be precived as strong.

3-bets

1. Should I only be 3-betting in position?

No, playing a hand like QQ oop sucks so you should be 3-betting just as much/maybe more OOP then IP

2. When is it better to just flat call?
If you have AQ on the button and the CO raises, you know he is raising very wide but you also know he folds much to 3bets.
We should probably be flatting cause our 3bet is only geting called/4bet by better hands but we dominated alot of his CO raising range so we really want to see a flop with him, cause dominating people is the nuts .

3. How should I react to opponents 3-bets? when should I call, when should I fold?

This is hugely situational and do dificult to judge imo with out a HH or something.

Just my 2cents.
Really hoping some of the best players here will check out this thread cause it is awsome

#8 7th July 2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj11

Falian, be patient with this thread. You presented yourself extremely well here, seeking specific things, and this thread will likely generate a lot of great discussion. Many of our best posters are in Vegas at the moment, so the responses may seem thin, but hang in there.

I'm still learning the same things you are so it would just be a few standard answers to your questions on each subject.

As DJ said, show some patience while waiting for responses being there are some players that aren't here daily because they're out of town.

Very quality thread. I will be checking up on this just as much as you will for responses because I still need some advice on the same things that you have in this thread.

GL man

#9 8th July 2009, 1:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falian

I've been playing poker for the past 6 months (roughly) and have been gradually improving my game. Recently, I feel that I have mastered the fundamentals, the building blocks of poker that any aspiring player needs to succeed.

However, now that I am looking to take my game to the next level I need help understanding and applying "2nd level thinking" poker concepts that are critical to have as you move up in stakes.

So, I will be posting 5 replies directly below, each with a separate concept that I need assistance on. I greatly appreciate help on any questions you feel qualified to answer.

1. C-bets
2. 3-bets
3. Applying villian ranges to specific hands.
4. When to bluff
5. Laying down made hands

If I can patch up these leaks I really feel like I'll be moving up in stakes quick.

C-bets

To start things off, yes I know what a c-bet is and yes I understand the concept behind it. A c-bet gives you fold equity as well as masks the difference between your made hands and missed hands and draws. This often causes villians to play against you when they often shouldn't.

Although I understand the concept of the c-bet i'm not too sure I am successfully applying it, and as a result this may be a leak. I often hear people saying the c-bet between 60%-90% of the time. This seems to correlate well, considering people miss the flop 1/3 of the time.

1. Should my c-betting be directly related to the cards on the board? I understand I should be c-betting with overcards, etc.
c-betting depends on the flop texture and villain. when you c-bet you should be thinking what you are representing with that c-bet and whats villains hand range. oh and like belgo said definitely watch the vid, he explains it much better than i do.

2. How should I handle c-betting in a multi-way pot? this is a "it depends" question but really it depends how many players in the pot, and i would be c-betting to get pay people to pay for their draws or c-betting if i think it missed the other players ranges.

3. When should I not be c-betting? the most obvious to me is when you are up against an aggressive players and say you have mid pair, you really don't want to play a big pot with it so i would be checking back for pot control if the villain is aggressive and known to be tricky.

4. How should my image/opponents hud affect my decision? this really only applies to regs, if you have a lag image, you can be cbetting flops like 6 5 8 or w/e because you have those hands in your range but if you are playing tag and that same flop comes up against a solid reg you don't want to be c-betting because they can float/bluff raise you. I personally have the fold to c-bet % and i like to look at that and use that to help. if its pretty high I will be cbetting against that player like everytime until he decides to stop me. if the person has a low fold to c-bet %, i will start c-betting less but start betting more and just value town that atm

Overall, I feel like my c-bets aren't as effective as they should be (at 10nl). I'm either getting floated or people have solid hands and I feel double barrelling is an even bigger leak in my game, so i've stopped that almost all together. ok well post some of your stats and will see. about double barrelling, you have to understand when to double barrel, say the turn comes 2, i mean its obvious that 2 doesn't help your hand so double barreling there is no good but say the turn is an A or fills a flush, that can certainly be in your range and double barreling that is not bad if you have the villain on like mid pair/top pair hand. Also you only want to be double barreling good thinking playes, double barreling bad players usually is a bad idea.

3-bets

1. Should I only be 3-betting in position? no, say you are bb and button has been raising you like everytime, i would certainly start 3 betting/flatting him.
2. When is it better to just flat call? when you are slow playing i guess.
3. How should I react to opponents 3-bets? when should I call, when should I fold? well i would be looking at their 3 bet %, think about how much i have been raising them, think about our positions. You don't want to be set mining 3 bets because you get horrible odds so you want to be 4 betting them or and most of the time folding because most people don't know how to 3 bet light. I would be calling 3 bets with hands like 78s if im deepstacked against another deepstacked player in position.

Applying villains range to specific hands

I feel like this may be one of my biggest issues. Pre-flop I use the hud ranges a lot, and I often adjust my range and decisions based on that. Post-flop, however, I really don't feel like i'm using these stats effectively. How do you use your hud to make post-flop decisions? there are few stats you can use to help you with postflop, their aggresion factor, showdown %, FPIP, PRF. this question is too simple for me to go in detail. if you have more specific question feel free to ask.

When to bluff/float

I feel like most of the time i'm bluffing based on how I read a villians strength through his actions, rather than basing it off of the board. Any advice here? you want to be thinking of villains range and think of what range you can represent, and semi bluff and stuff like that. also floating and then representing like a made draw, or floating say when the flop is like 8 6 4 and the villain is a TAG and you don't want to bluff raise but you don't think his range hit that flop unless he has a set or over pairs, so you float and hope he gives up on the turn.

Also, when should I read other peoples bluffs and be able to float it?
kind of what i said above.

Laying down made hands

I can do this pretty easily If I have tptk and I feel like someone hit their straight or flush draw. However, I feel like i'm losing a lot of money to trips, etc. more specific please.

Pot Control

Everyone says "big hand, big pots" "small hand, small pots" then I see "keep your bets standard, 2/3 the pot or you will invite in draws or show weakness" what gives?
i kind of mentioned this earlier, you want to be going for pot control with hands like mid pairs against aggresive players.

but yea im kind of falling asleep, i tried to respod to my best abilities while half asleep but feel free to ask any questions, a lot of those were really general and its kind of hard to answer those questions.

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