Poker is Dead

#1 27th May 2009, 6:32 PM

There are a few threads here about online poker being rigged and donkey plays so I don't want to start another big discussion on these old themes.
What I would like to say is that traditional poker has gone.
There was a time when great players could use their skill, knowledge of odds, reads on other players, to be consistently successful.

There are now a lot more players.
The odds of being knocked out by any two cards are now very high.

My view is that modern tournament play is going to be more based on chance of the masses than skill of the few.
If you need proof of this just watch the major tournament (WSOP,EPT) final tables, see the age and experience of the players, and most importantly see how few of them will be there more than once.
Also note the 'quality' of play that got them there.

My advice is to stop talking about rigging or donkeys and just stick to cash games, because there the skill of the few can still take the money off the masses.

#2 27th May 2009, 6:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chemist

There are now a lot more players.
The odds of being knocked out by any two cards are now very high.

My view is that modern tournament play is going to be more based on chance of the masses than skill of the few.

The odds of being knocked out by 8/4 when you have A/A hasn't changed from 1900 to today..

Obviously the WSOP ME has changed in the last few years. The field size used to be a couple hundred at best, now its in the 8 thousand range. Of course it's going to take some "luck" to get there. You can pick the "best" player in the world and he would still have to win at least some flips or some 60/40s to have a chance at going deep

#3 27th May 2009, 6:54 PM

but u can get stimy and loose more money... i say one should stick to mtt and sng

#4 28th May 2009, 8:08 AM

No skill in poker anymore... heads up game? 1000$ buyin.

(Oh, by the way, Ivan Demidov took 2nd and 3rd in the WSOP main events in Vegas and Europe. Doesn't that say something?)

#5 28th May 2009, 10:21 AM

I think poker is far from dead, but it is changing. I've been watching Durrr play a bit on different TV programs and the older player seem to have a real problem with how they play against him. Of course some of them are going to shout and moan about the way he plays because it's different.

Durrr's style seems to be the up and coming way to play and whether you like it or not you have to say he is good at it. There are a group of young players who have learned there trade on the net that seem to be turning poker on it's head, good for them change makes thing interesting.

Got to love the way they bring on Helmuth rants as well

#6 4th June 2009, 4:56 PM

Helmuth has many wsop bracelets.
His comments about Durrr's play were that it was old fashioned and that he gave up playing that way 10 years ago.
If the changes make it more a game of chance than skill is this more interesting to play or watch?
Personally I have little interest in chance games.

Have to agree though watching Helmuth brought to rant is funny.

#7 4th June 2009, 5:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chemist

There are a few threads here about online poker being rigged and donkey plays so I don't want to start another big discussion on these old themes.
What I would like to say is that traditional poker has gone.
There was a time when great players could use their skill, knowledge of odds, reads on other players, to be consistently successful.

There are now a lot more players.
The odds of being knocked out by any two cards are now very high.

My view is that modern tournament play is going to be more based on chance of the masses than skill of the few.
If you need proof of this just watch the major tournament (WSOP,EPT) final tables, see the age and experience of the players, and most importantly see how few of them will be there more than once.
Also note the 'quality' of play that got them there.

My advice is to stop talking about rigging or donkeys and just stick to cash games, because there the skill of the few can still take the money off the masses.

cash games ftw

#8 4th June 2009, 5:52 PM

The rules are the same. I think TV channels, game makers, press etc. pay more attention to poker. Because of this there are much more players, rgo much more good players, so one expert player cant "rule" for long, because there are many players on the same level.

#9 4th June 2009, 5:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infamous1020

cash games ftw

I agree, cash games are what poker is about.

Tournaments are a relatively new phenomena. In the cash game world, if you play bad you will lose, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but over 6-12 months good players win and bad players lose.

#10 4th June 2009, 6:10 PM

Yes traditional old school poker isn't around anymore.... lots of new players.. donks... have changed the game in its entirety. Kinda crazy to see it all change like that.

#11 4th June 2009, 6:52 PM

Class is permanent, form is temporary

#12 4th June 2009, 6:55 PM

the whole reason poker is so big is because of these new people who don;t know how to play....your logic is all wrong imo. I want those people in there with any two cards, and that is exactly why regs win money and why poker IS NOT DEAD.

#13 4th June 2009, 7:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingCurtis

the whole reason poker is so big is because of these new people who don;t know how to play....your logic is all wrong imo. I want those people in there with any two cards, and that is exactly why regs win money and why poker IS NOT DEAD.

Exactly. If everyone played the "proper" philosophical perfect game then that would leave it to chance. It's exactly as K.Curtis tells it so I won't repeat in my own words.

#14 4th June 2009, 8:40 PM

The allure and mistique of poker has fadded some especially due to the influx of subpar players. The game is changing and im not sure if i like the direction. It feels like poker is going more virtual and in a global gamming kind of way. I think the luck factor is rising more because of the poor choices and variance im leaning towards leaving poker once i hit big.

#15 4th June 2009, 9:35 PM

Poker is far from dead. There are more people playing today then ever before. Yes, this means there are more donks but it also means there are alot more smart players out there. I think what pisses off the older players is the aggresion is so hgh today then it was 50 years ago. Yes OP I note there 'quality' of play. Whats wrong with it? Is it not your style so you don't like it? All you have to do is check OPR and other sites and you will see that there are alot of people who play and win tournaments on a regular basis and make a very good living at it.

#16 4th June 2009, 10:57 PM

POKER IS DEAD!

LONG LIVE POKER!!!!!!

When I die, then poker will be over. Meanwhile, please pass the chips. Yummmm....

#17 4th June 2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tpb221

Poker is far from dead. There are more people playing today then ever before. Yes, this means there are more donks but it also means there are alot more smart players out there. I think what pisses off the older players is the aggresion is so hgh today then it was 50 years ago. Yes OP I note there 'quality' of play. Whats wrong with it? Is it not your style so you don't like it? All you have to do is check OPR and other sites and you will see that there are alot of people who play and win tournaments on a regular basis and make a very good living at it.

Being an old fart, I can speak to this. I remember decades ago play in the caf at skul, and donks were just as donkish as today, and sharks were just as sharkish. Only diff is I dont haf to go to skul to play anymore; the game has come to me!!

#18 4th June 2009, 11:04 PM

all i have to say about this and anything in life ..music baseball basketaball poker ...its forever evolving........i cant really comment on how the game was but we all know about the slim n brunson days when the few greats dominated when no one would dare play a 86 off suit.....today its a new monset overly aggro players are everywhere...its a new game

#19 6th June 2009, 2:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chronical23

Yes traditional old school poker isn't around anymore.... lots of new players.. donks... have changed the game in its entirety. Kinda crazy to see it all change like that.

too be honest the games have gotten much harder, not more donklike. I heard that 10/20 a few years ago is way way easier than 10/20 now

#20 6th June 2009, 4:11 PM

I think that the tough thing is that when you are playing on line, you really dont know who you are playing against, therefore it is tough to read how crazy a player will play

#21 6th June 2009, 4:26 PM

Yeah but back in the old days you couldn't play anything but AA KK QQ JJ or TT. Booooring!

#22 6th June 2009, 5:41 PM

Poker will never go away. As long as people enjoy playing it, whatever the reason, they will continue.

#23 6th June 2009, 5:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemlywinks

The odds of being knocked out by 8/4 when you have A/A hasn't changed from 1900 to today..

While this is true. The formula is still skewed. Every formula has multiple variables, and usually ONE constant. E=MC2 was one example. The C stands for "the speed of light" which was thought to be a constant. Now we know that "C" can change as well. Thus changing the entire formula.

While the odds of being beat by an 84o are the same. The odds of being called with an 84o has gone up. Considerably. Conversely, the odds of being knocked out by an 84o HAS gone up.

-

#24 6th June 2009, 6:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu_Ungar

I agree, cash games are what poker is about.

Tournaments are a relatively new phenomena. In the cash game world, if you play bad you will lose, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but over 6-12 months good players win and bad players lose.

Eh, depends on your definition of new, I guess... the WSOPs started in the 1970s right? I mean that's 40 years ago...

One of the big draws to those huge tournaments are the huge payoffs in comparison to the buy-in. People will take those shots even when they are huge underdogs, either because they don't realize how big of a dog they are, or because they don't care. People make 6 line parlay bets with a 20%+ house edge for the same reasons.

#25 6th June 2009, 6:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syfted

Eh, depends on your definition of new, I guess... the WSOPs started in the 1970s right? I mean that's 40 years ago...

In 1971 the total number of players in the WSOP main event was a staggering 6; by 1979 this had increased to 54.

1986 was the first year it reached over 150.

Chris Fergison won, in 2000, against a field of 512

By 2003 (the year Chris Moneymaker won) there were 893 entrants.. which was by far the largest number ever. The previous two years had seen fields of around 600.

In 2004, the following year, which was won by Greg Raymer there were 2567, the year after over 5000 and of course when Jamie Gold won in 2006 there were almost 9000.

Since then the field size seems to have stabilised at around 6000.

So it seems that poker tournaments really took off around the years 2000 - 2004.

Many people attribute the poker craze to Chris Moneymaker's win in 2003

#26 6th June 2009, 6:39 PM

100% right having skill nowadays is still good but you always get those donkey players that will play any hand and win and think they are a great player no skill being a dokey all luck. I use to like playing tourneys now I find them to be a big waste of time.

#27 6th June 2009, 9:16 PM

I hate to say it but i agree with this thread.

#28 6th June 2009, 10:12 PM

I think It has just become more mathmatical, Witch means pot odds and every donkey calling with crap saying pot odds say to call when the don't when the don't even know how spell it. Yes more players means more bad ones to. A good player will fight through them and yes you will get good hands beat down by crap that is just poker.

#29 7th June 2009, 1:15 AM

Skill and experience are not drinking )))

#30 7th June 2009, 4:14 AM

yea poker is not like it was 10 years ago then we had marathons not sessions and if a player came in won a couple hundred then got up to leave. if he did make it out the door he wasnt invited back. now days everyone wants to play a tourny then go home. we used to start a cash game on fri and it lasted till mon morning. had a couch over in the corner when someone got tired they could take a nap. yea them were the good ole days.

#31 7th June 2009, 6:39 AM

Its the same game as its always been. You are right there are alot more people playing poker and alot of them are Donkeys, but this is not a bad thing. If you cant beat a cat that barely knows how to play Id like to find you in one of your cash games.

#32 7th June 2009, 7:12 AM

The oldtimers in the 1970s might have said the same thing when Doyle and others started playing suited connectors. Durrrr and Ivey and others have changed it, fine line between donk and genius I guess.

#33 7th June 2009, 10:10 AM

Quote:

So it seems that poker tournaments really took off around the years 2000 - 2004.

Many people attribute the poker craze to Chris Moneymaker's win in 2003

That's when I first got into poker...Watching MoneyMaker on ESPN in '03. Started playing tournaments online soon after. Poker is far from dead...

#34 28th September 2009, 3:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lektrikguy

The oldtimers in the 1970s might have said the same thing when Doyle and others started playing suited connectors. Durrrr and Ivey and others have changed it, fine line between donk and genius I guess.

Quote:

"While this is true. The formula is still skewed. Every formula has multiple variables, and usually ONE constant. E=MC2 was one example. The C stands for "the speed of light" which was thought to be a constant. Now we know that "C" can change as well. Thus changing the entire formula."

Wow daring to say Einstein was wrong, guess it is a fine line between donk and genius.

Would like to see the new formula could be a nobel prize in it.
F neq MA (newton was wrong)
E neq MC2 (einstein wrong)
D = MP2 (Donkey=MassivePayouts)

#35 17th October 2009, 4:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chemist

Wow daring to say Einstein was wrong, guess it is a fine line between donk and genius.

Would like to see the new formula could be a nobel prize in it.
F neq MA (newton was wrong)
E neq MC2 (einstein wrong)
D = MP2 (Donkey=MassivePayouts)

I'm not sure if that poster was referencing the effects of special relativity but I'm pretty sure there has been nothing to disprove the mass energy equivalence. If there is supposed "proof" that light travels at different speeds in a vacuum, I'm sure the relation still holds true using the old constant that was thought to be the speed of light.

Do note that neither F=ma and E=mc2 hold when taking special relatively into account. However, the special relativity counterparts do simplify to those formulas at more "normal" speeds.

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