Poker Clans

What I would like to see in the Poker scene are freeroll clans, i.e. poker players that gather in private freerolls to experience high stakes play without putting their savings on the line. They could play in either cash games or tournaments, but only with fellow clan members, that have sworn an oath to treat play money as real money. In addition, there'll be a ranking published on the clan's website, so players will get respect and fame for their good poker play.

In a way, having a VIP freeroll lounge (cash games & tournaments) in a poker room mimics this idea, especially if you add a ranking system that somehow calculates how well people play. You could even have nicknames for certain ranges in the high score list, ranging from "Complete Donk" to "Seasoned Pro". I really feel Poker isn't married to its real money roots, as long as you can find other incentives to play well.

I guess something like this could work - you'd just have to find other people who wanted to play poker solely for the glory and not for the money.

Personally, I've only got so many hours in the week to play. So if I had to make the choice between spending my time attaining glory or spending my time making money... they money wins every time.

Best of luck.

Why would winning players choose to play in such a clan instead of making money in real money games?

The reason freerolls are donkfests is not primarily that people don't respect them enough. It's that good players are elsewhere busy making real money.

Yeah, i think there wouldnt be too many people up for this as if you really are good at poker then why play for play money why not make a bit of coin when indulging in your hobby/obsession?? I play for glory, my own personal glory, i can look at my pokertracker graph and smile to myself or sometimes send a screenshot to a friend to show them how well im doing. Some people are in poker to cash in a major tourny and be the face on all the magazine covers, i'm (and i think many other players are) happy enough making a little bit of cash and striving to build my roll.

Good luck with it all though.

Actually your idea isnt all that bad. If people claim to play for the love of the game it ought to be possible to gather some people with the same peace of mind. I am one of the people that play because I love the game, unfortunately a big part of my love is due to the fact that I can earn money playing it . But good luck!

There are a lot of skill levels between being a donk and being a winning player. It's not because you've read a book or two on Poker, that you're suddenly a winning player. Often, new players lose their entire bankroll as learning money. Even then, it's not sure they'll ever become winning players - but they're not donks, either.

Granted, top players would likely leave the clan seeking fortune in stead of fame. So what? That just means the system works.

This is not entirely true - freeroll does not necessarily imply bad play. Again, mediocre players that aren't exactly winning players yet would benefit from a ranking system, so they could choose to play with other high-ranking freeroll players, in stead of being lumped together with donks.

there is a ranking system in place in poker. it's money. And if you can't beat the micro-stakes, you're at the very bottom of the food chain.

Your idea would have more merits if the only real money games available involved a significant $$ amount, but considering you can play 2nl on pokerstars and that some sites offer $0.1 sitandgo's, and considering the level of play at those stakes, i really don't think there's room for an additional layer below that for people who can't beat super micro stakes but are not donks either.

One other thought - the concept you're proposing is fairly similar to the concept behind the Professional Poker Tour. All the events on that were freerolls for the pros who had good enough results to gain entry, and they were very big on keeping stats and such forth.

Funny thing though, the Professional Poker Tour got axed after just five events...

Another issue is the economy behind this.

For the poker site, there are costs associated to running freerolls, whether they offer cash prizes or not. The money required to pay those costs comes from the rake paid by players in the real money games. FWIW, i paid about $5k in rake last year, should pay at least $15k this year, imo. Obviously the operating cost of running the tables i played on is much lower than that amount, so most of that money goes somewhere else.

There are many ways the poker site can spend the operating profit from my rake. It can keep it as profits, which is good for its owners. It can give me some back in the form of rakeback or other vip promotions, and that's good too because it helps keep me as their customer. It can run ads on tv and sponsor pros at media-covered tournaments, and that's good because it brings in new players that will bring profits to both me and the poker site. And it can finance the operating cost of your poker clan, and that bring profits neither for them nor for me. Both the poker site and I need losing players to play in real money games, or else the whole poker economy collapses.

The only way I can see a group of people to join this clan if maybe they were religous and chose not to gamble. But generally the two don't mix real well.

Good point. However, there is still a difference between not being a donk, and being able to beat donks. To cite the first paragraph of "Small Stakes Hold'em" by Sklansky, Mallmuth and Miller:

"Writing a good book about small stakes hold'em is not as easy as you might think. Just because the opponents you encounter in these games have poor to mediocre skill levels does not mean that the expanation to beat them can be mediocre as well. On the contrary, the underlying concepts needed to extract the most from these players are just as deep, though different, from those needed to beat better players in bigger games."

Arguably, small stakes poker and medium/high stakes poker are almost as different as limit hold'em and no limit hold'em. It's not because you can beat one, that you can beat the other. Likewise, the jump from small stakes poker to medium/high stakes poker is not simply a matter of skill. Hence my clan would still be useful for players that don't want to play small stakes poker, but prefer medium/high stakes poker.

Yikes ^^^^

Apart from all the clan speak, I suppose in spirit this is a solid idea but no matter how much you commit to playing some sort of merit based fantasy poker, it'll never equate to a style of playing for money.

fwiw, i started my bankroll from $0.4 in freeroll winning, playing $0.05 SNGs, and I can assure you there's nothing easier than beating donks.

Well ... you are, of course, a winning player, so you'll obviously think donks are easy to beat.

But, do you mean to say that anyone could beat small stakes hold'em?

With the proper learning in place, anyone should be able to beat small stakes hold 'em. The reality is though that there's a lot of people who don't learn and can't beat it - it's the reason winning players exist at those stakes.

If you're talking about these private clan games being against people who can't beat small stakes hold 'em though... I've gotta admit, you've lost me. What's "high stakes" or "seasoned pro" about beating a bunch of people who can't beat the easiest games around?

No, the clan would consist of people that don't want to play the style of poker needed to beat small stakes hold'em games - i.e. little or no deception, many limpers giving everyone the correct odds to call, etc. Instead, they want to play the style typically found in high stakes hold'em games - the style that is also covered in most poker books. Yet, this style is unavailable to them, unless they want to throw some serious cash around. Hence the clan.

I would like to be taller.

I would definatly be interested in something like that.

Lets see which would I choose....
Bragging rights ......???
Fat wallet ........???
Seems pretty simple to me.
Nice idea but I'm too busy building a bankroll....... Thanks

Am I too results oriented ??

The one response that seems to be missing is that CC already has a lot of what you are suggesting - built in. Once you follow the folks here a while, you'll see there are 'undefined' clans of sorts. They play against each other, meet at various level tables and join threads of interest to them.

There are already freeroll and real money leaderboards, well managed freerolls, small entry field buy-ins at several levels and the many ongoing Cardschat 'Special Events'. There is even a regular thread now for micro stakes nl players. There is the Last Player Standing Challenge at almost every freeroll, 5 times a week - held for the fun and glory only.

Probably a few other regular things I haven't incuded, but there are a lot of existing options.

It would also be difficult to manage special freerolls for 'select' individuals. We already have problems keeping password thieves and reckless players out of the CC freereolls. Inherent with 'clans' is the bickering that seems to follow the clan atmosphere in other forums as well.

Look around. I'm sure there is plenty here to keep you on your toes ...

Like I said, I can see where you're going with this and if you can find the like minded people that will make it work then I'm happy for you.

The problem I keep seeing is that you won't get the true style played in high stakes games or that the books talk about because evaluating risk is pretty much the whole point of the game. And you're proposing to remove all the risk from the game.

If everyone buys into the fantasy then I guess it could work. But when you're effectively playing for $0, everyone's always got the correct odds to call.

I hope you realize poker is not an artistic discipline where you get extra points for playing the correct style, right? I'm sorry but your post sounds a lot like a variation of the classic "i can't beat the donks, i should move up to a level where they respect my raises".

Now if you want a more practical advice: play micro-stakes sit and go's. Contrarily to cash games, in SNGs you can easily beat the micros using the exact same strategy you would use to beat $1k games (read Moshmann's book for instance), only you'll get a better much ROI at the micros. After crushing micro SNGs for some time, you'll have a roll to play low-stakes cash game and hopefully you'll see less massive multi-way pots that you seem to detest.

I understand what a clan is. Another term for a team. Is poker though a team game? Are there poker tournaments that focus on clan play? If so how is the success measured? If you formulate a private tournament just for your clan, aren't you just passing the money along to each other? Also, it's hard to take serious play in poker if all you're investing is noting, when using play money.

Well, "detest" is a strong word - I was just thinking out loud, here. But thanks for the advice, I'll check out the book you recommended.