Poker Brat strategy

How does Phil justify coming to the main event late? Everyone knows he is going to do it, and it makes no sense to me. Isn't that counter productive? Giving away blinds and missing out on those hands. Especially if he claims to be that good...

Anyways it was just a thought...

Why is it when you play in the large field free rolls that people sit out for the first half hour or more. Because they are waiting some the crazy's to get out of his way. And he also has to feed his ego and make a grand entrance.

He probably makes more money from his business interests and from endorsements than he does from tournament winnings. His image and reputation are super-important to him.

Ding,ding,ding. Whe got a winner!

Phil´s money comes from endorsement deals and he get thouse endorsements because of his retard bad boy image.

I guess if he is just trying to just make an entrance then fine...but if he is "so good" why wouldn't he want to play with the suckers who go out in the first hour? I guess if it is for the endorsement money, I would refuse to show up if that is what they wanted...

That's true somewhat I think. You would think in the biggest event in the world, there wouldn't be donkeys that overbet the pot and shove in all there chips with AK on the first hand, but there is. No matter what level you're playing, there is always donkeys. Some are rich people that don't care and some are just plain donkeys. I think he does it now to keep the tradition by making his big entrance and because of endorsements, but I think he started it however many years ago because of the donkey effect. Phil doesn't like to get into big pots early. He would probably even fold AA on the first hand. If you are a good enough player and you can outplay people in the long run, there's no reason to put your whole stack at risk that early when you know you can get your chips in a higher favorite after the flop. The guy did make it all the way to like 40th place or something. I give him credit. He makes laydowns nobody else would make. (except me lol)

In Phil's case specifically, I think the guys above really do have it: making an entrance really is more important to him that playing those initial hands.

Think about it: if he turned up on time or thereabouts like a regular player, nobody would pay a great deal of attention. If he draws a non-TV table and busts before he gets onto one, the most TV time he'll get from the Main Event is a shot of him walking out the door and a brief interview in which he can whine about donkeys that can't even spell poker.

Partly, I'm sure, it's an ego thing. He probably couldn't stand to get that little attention in a Main Event. He's Phil freaking Hellmuth Jr, after all. The Main Event is his event.

But it's also a branding and business thing. If he turns up late and makes his grand entrance, he's guaranteed that ESPN will be there with the cameras because gawd knows there's sod-all else of interest happening during the first level of play.

He gets his TV time, loads of people see the UltimateBet logo on his chest, and the poker world spends their time talking about what a douchebag he is for making these stupid entrances every year (there being no such thing as bad publicity). People set lines and take bets on when he's going to turn up.

Stock in Brand Hellmuth in general rises because people are looking at him and talking about him. And he gets all this benefit for the measly price of a few rounds of blinds. Hell, if I was in his position I'd be doing the exact same thing.

Everything Phil does is geared toward publicity. Thats how he makes his money he is not a cash game player and his tournament winning dwarf his endorsement deals.

Maybe he thinks he's so good he can win despite showing up late lol.

In all seriousness though, pretty much been answered above.

Plus from what I've seen Hellmuth isn't all that great in deepstack situations. Hell he could be -ev in that situation (I know he is against other good players, but I think even Hellmuth is competent enough to beat the majority of donks that populate the ME).

Its all part of the image, even by not being there people are still talking about him, and when he does show they talk about him.

So the whole time he is in their heads even though he may not even be there - good trick if you can do it

I never thought about it this way. haha thats perfect!! even when he's not there people are hearing him pout and complain in their heads lol

He plays in plenty of cash games also. He is a much better tournament player, but he does play in the biggest cash games in the world.

yeah i agree you only have to watch him in UB in half an hour and take 80k off someone who thinks they are a contender .... he plays cash alright

He doesn't play in the big game at the Bellagio - one assumes because even he knows he blows at everything other than hold 'em.

Nor does he play PLO against the new-rich Russian oil barons. Or if he does, he's never crowed about it.

And he only played the $100K buy-in shows on HSP, not the $500K.

Therefore, Phil Hellmuth does not play in the biggest cash games in the world. It's established that he does play fairly high-stakes cash games from time to time. Definitely not the biggest and highest ones though.

That and if he would win again he would be able to brag that he even showed up late with half of a stack to come back and win..

The only people more stupid than Phil and his childish antics are the people who pay him sponsorship money. The guy acts like a 7 year old and promotes for a site where widespread cheating went on. I wouldn't wear his branded clothing if he gave me an entire wardrobe. Am I the only only one who thinks this way???

Phil is an idiot whiny little baby.

He got 45th in this years WSOP and went 2/3 days without committing his whole stack after day one or two. From a field of over 6000 players to 45th and protecting his stack like that is impressive by anyone's standards and that includes ALL the pro players.

Once about 3000 players were eliminated I would be hard pressed to say there were any donkey's left in the reckoning TBH. If he is guilty of turning up late just to make some kind of grand entrance to get air time etc, then good for him.

ESPN would be tripping over themselves to get him on camera regardless of whether he turned up late or not. He is a huge name in the poker world and always will be.
He has done as much for poker as Doyle Brunson easily.
Granted, he doesn't carry himself with half the style that Doyle does but he still remains a huge attraction to the likes of ESPN.

Yep, he certainly lives up to his "Brat" name and has major issues controlling his thoughts etc but at the end of the day, and in those types of events, he is the king of the castle.

There are loads of donkeys left with 300 to go in the Main Event. Some years there are loads of donkeys left with two to go. I give you Jerry Yang, for example.

I don't dispute that Hellmuth is a very good donkament player (in hold 'em events, at any rate). Suggesting he's done as much for poker as Doyle Brunson though?!? Blasphemy, IMO.

I had a bit of a laugh at this but as a gentlemen I will respect your opinions wholeheartedly. Though that doesn't mean I agree with what you say here.

I can't agree with you that after 5 days ( 300 players left? ) solid at about 12-15 hours a day of playing poker at the WSOP ME from a field of over 6000 that "loads" of donkey's still remain.

The donkey's get found out and picked off well before this point. It's virtually impossible to run uber lucky for the 60-75 continuous hours of play down to the last 300 even for a donkey.

As for donkey's making it HU at the final table after 7/8 days and probably 80-100 hours of continuous play, that's just ridiculous. ( sorry )
In these situations you have to give credit where credit is due, off handed waving away such achievements don't ring true to me.

About Hellmuth, whether people like it of not, he is in fact right up there with the best of the best and has stood the test of time.
Choosing from "current, active" players, he has most certainly achieved his rightful place as one of the few people who has done much for poker.

He is in the "Poker Hall Of Fame", which as far as I am concerned, and as far as the powers that be are concerned, is testament enough.
There are 4 main requirements to getting into the poker hall of fame and are as follows.............

1. Player must have played high stakes.
2. Player must have played against acknowledged top competition.
3. Player must have played well consistently and gained the respect of his peers.
4. player must have stood the test of time.

There are a few exceptions to these rules with likes of Edmund Hoyle and Wild Bill Hickock for obvious reasons.
Being admitted to the Poker Hall Of Fame is considered one of the biggest honors in poker.

When Hellmuth sits down at the WSOP ME 2009 ( after a grand late entrance of course ) it will be the 20th anniversary of him winning the event.
From reading a completely different thread about the average age of CC members, it's safe to say that the majority of members here were learning how to be potty trained at the time of Hellmuth picking up that bracelet.

Love him, hate him, laugh at him, cry at him, but more importantly, suck it in and acknowledge what he has achieved and what he has done for the game.

Great players like Ivey and Negreanu will have their hall of fame day too, once they pass their apprenticeship that is.

I've always loved watching the Philster, but always thought he was kinda overrated, UNTIL I heard him talking about a theory, that if a player bets a big enough amount, he would consider folding aces preflop in a cashgame, because why SETTLE for being a 4 to 1 favorite against kings, when you know for a fact that you can win money risk free later on. That made me think and realize Phil isn't just an ego case, he's also a ****in sweet poker player.
Also seeing him fold queens preflop on Poker After Dark (to an amateur who got on the show from an online satellite...and Phil was the shortstack) then building back up to the chiplead risk free.
Not to mention his 11 bracelets, New York Times bestseller Poker book, and lots of other decent tournament wins.
And making it to 40th place in the Main Event without once being all in... get real, this guy's a legend... because.. He can Dodge Bullets Baby!

Don't be sorry. I've got three words for you: "Raise one million".

Jerry Yang was, and still is, a luckbox donkey. What had he done before the 2007 Main Event? Nothing. What's he done since the 2007 Main Event? Nothing. How did he perform at the 2008 WSOP? Laughably. My gawd, people thought Jamie Gold was bad...

If we need further proof, let's look at the 2005 Main Event, and the performance of one Tiffany Williamson. She made it to the top 20, despite doing things like taking an absolutely epic amount of time deciding to fold KJ to a four-bet preflop shove on the final day at the Rio. Donkey, plain and simple, 100%.

Donkeys can and do make it deep in the Main Event all the time nowadays. Fact. It's just the nature of the tournament - with over 6000 entrants, running like god is the name of the game.

If luck weren't the major deciding factor then Hellmuth, who has a style that's about as perfect for the Main Event as anyone's, would make it deep every year. He doesn't. Didn't someone once acknowledge that by saying that if luck weren't a factor they'd win every one? I just wish I could remember who it was...

I don't dispute for a second that Hellmuth is among the best NLHE donkament players in the world, and has been for many years.

What I do dispute though is the amount he's "done" for poker. Look at the criteria you yourself have posted for the Poker Hall of Fame. None of them refer to "doing" anything "for" the game of poker. They just require that you've played for lots of money against good players for lots of years.

Hellmuth has done an awful lot for himself, using poker as a vehicle, and FWIW I respect that. But what's he done for poker? Was he the one behind the Moneymaker effect? No. Did he introduce hole card cameras? No.

Was he one of the players that took on the WPT over the player release issue? No. Has he been especially outspoken about the UIEGA? No. Was he behind the push to standardise major tournament rules? Erm... no. Is he even on the WSOP Players Advisory Council? No. Did he write the book that got loads of people into poker? No, Doyle did that.

Does he still shill for a site that was involved in a massive cheating scandal, and did he stay silent about it? Actually... yes, he did. And granted, he was a founding member of the WPA. But so were 128 other professionals. And Brandi Hawbaker. So read into that what you will.

Cliff notes:

Phil Hellmuth has done lots for himself, and I respect both that and his poker skills. He hasn't done a great deal for poker though. That's OK, nobody says he has to. But the facts stand.

I guess everyone must be a donkey then huh? Someone takes an age to fold a hand back in 2005 so they must be a donkey, right?
Someone makes the final table of the WSOP ME but has no big wins before and after making that final table, they must be a donkey then right?

Basically most, if not all recent ME winners must be donkeys, add in the other 8 players at the final tables of recent times, all donkeys too.
Lets not forget the top 20 in 2005, donkeys of course.

Lets use a huge sample size of one or two hands out of 100's, no, more like 1000's and proclaim everybody a donkey.

Yes indeed, quoting 000000.1% of a players hands in a WSOP ME is "fact" and "proof" enough that that player was, is, and always will be a donkey.
Yep, it's all very clear, using a sample sizes the size of a grain of salt from a full salt pot confirms that all of these poker players are donkeys.

It's lucky for Brunson that the fields of 1976 and 1977 were 22 and 34 instead of 1000's because god forbid, he might of been accused of "running like god" if he ploughed through 1000's instead of less than 2 dozen and 3 dozen.

Lets forget about the 5 other people that contributed chapters to Super System, yeah lets just ignore Bobby Baldwin, Mike Caro, David Sklansky, Chip Reese and Joey Hawthorne, obviously they are donkeys and not worthy.

Super System came out in 1978 and I don't recall a big surge of new poker players at the WSOP in 1978 and/or 1979 for that matter. The fields were 42 and 54. In 1980 it reached the dizzy heights of 73 entrants.

Super System2 came out in 2004, hmmmm interesting, the year after Moneymaker won the ME, excellent timing there Doyle, nice one. In 2003 there were 839 entrants and because of MONEYMAKER's achievements and the fact he did it all for a few bucks through sats, in 2004 there were 2576 entrants and poker as we know it today was born.
From what I can see, all Brunson did was jump on the band wagon and "do something for himself" but like you say, I respect that.

Hellmuth's silence over the UB scandal and the fact that he still wears their brand is perfectly fine as far as i am concerned. It proves he is a loyal person and not a ship jumper, he didn't run for the hills.
Hellmuth doesn't run UB and he isn't/wasn't involved with the day to day running of UB.
He is sponsored by UB in the same way that a sports star might be sponsored by Nike etc, how many sports pokerstars sponsored by sports brand companies like Nike have you seen speak out recently when their sponsors have been involved with scandals?

It's funny you mention the WPT, ............................


On December 14, 2005, the Securities and Exchange Commission filed an action[10] to enforce subpoenas issued to the attorneys of Doyle Brunson regarding his unsolicited offer in July of 2005 to buy WPT Enterprises, Inc., the publicly traded owner of the World Poker Tour, at a high premium over its then-market value. Shortly thereafter, the Commission contends, a public relations firm Brunson hired, and a website he endorses, publicly announced the offer. The Commission asserts that publication of this offer, widely covered in the media, triggered a steep rise in WPT's stock price on record trading volume.
When pressed for details, Brunson and his lawyers immediately stopped responding to the WPT and the media. Instead, after delivering the offer, Brunson withdrew from the engagement. When the WPT publicly disclosed Brunson and his law firm's unresponsiveness, its stock price sharply declined, costing investors tens of millions of dollars in lost market value. The offer eventually expired by its terms.
The SEC is formally investigating whether Brunson's offer and its publication violated federal securities laws, including the anti-fraud provisions of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. As part of its investigation, the SEC subpoenaed documents and testimony from Brunson's lawyers. However, Brunson, who has invoked his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination and declined to testify in the investigation, directed his lawyers to withhold certain documents and not to testify on critical aspects of the offer, under the attorney-client privilege and work product doctrine. The subpoena enforcement action seeks to set aside these privileges on various legal grounds, including the crime-fraud exception, and to compel Brunson's firm to provide the requested documents and testimony. The court has not yet set the Commission's action for hearing.[11]

.................................................. .....

No, you're right, Hellmuth didn't introduce hole card camera's to the poker world, only one person could do that. Shame on Hellmuth and every other poker player in the world except one, very slack of them huh.

Also shame on Hellmuth for not being "especially outspoken" on the UIEGA
He would of been much better off shouting his mouth off about it so that everyone could tell him to shut up and stop whinning like a baby.

holy wall of text. even in an alternate universe where you had a clue what you were talking about, i wouldn't read that

That's good to hear.

You do realise that after three rambling and incoherent posts you still haven't pointed out a single thing Phil Hellmuth has done for the poker world, right?

Ramblings and incoherent posts? My latest addition was an attempt at responding to your previous post to highlight how ridiculous your comments were, and it obviously worked.

While I am not in the habit of trying to make people look bad, I will respond to posts that are largely inaccurate and void of any substantial facts and proof, sometimes it's just unavoidable.

You quoted the words "fact" and "proof" while not providing any facts or proof. On the other hand, I quoted you accurate factual figures in answer to some of your claims.

If by doing so means I am rambling and incoherent, then I can only conclude that you simply choose to ignore facts when they are presented to you. This is something that I can't help you with, you yourself will have to try and deal with that.

EDIT: .............. I am on my daily post quota as of now but I will certainly post in 24 hours time and let you know what Hellmuth has done for poker.

Icing on the cake, IMO

This is good! And I didn't even have to buy tickets!

Personally, I think Hellmuth is a crybaby moron who just happens to be really, really good at poker. And I feel sorry for his wife who has to hear his whining for God knows how long after he gets his ass kicked.

MMMMM....cake and tiffany williamson in one thread...made my day!!!

i was going to reply to this thread but then i scrolled down...

Search his name, every reputable site out there will more often than not kick start their take on him with the word "legendary", that's a fact.
He has legendary status in the poker world and everybody knows who he is. He most likely has the highest or one of the highest profiles in the game, that's a fact.

The media fall over themselves to get a piece of him and have done for years, and he didn't have to have his name rubber stamped on some poker committee to achieve such a huge status, that's a fact.

Pokerpages quote the poker HOF as a place for "Influential" poker players, and Poker Listings quote him as being the "Pioneer" for a certain strategy method, I will take their view over yours any day of the week, that's a fact.

He just recently championed the TASER Foundation, using POKER as a vehicle to raise huge amounts of money.
If you don't know what it's all about I will tell you. It raises money to help the families of fallen law enforcement officers.
The families of people that put their lives on the line to protect people and die in the course of their duties.

By using poker to raise these huge amounts of monies for such a worthy cause he is sending out the message that poker, and poker players have heart and cares, that sir, is a fact.
It flies in the face of the likes of the UIEGA and does good things for poker.

You don't have to have invented some poker related gadget or helped to sort out major tournament rules to have done good things for poker.
You don't have to sit on a committee or council either.
There are many different things you can do help it along for it's greater good.

Maybe these types of things don't count in your world, but the smart money will always recognize such things and give credit where it's due, that's a fact.

It was fun engaging with you on this subject and I look forward to hooking up with you on other threads in the near future.

Damn.... Beat me to it Oz.


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I'm,sure,jerry,yang,doesnt,mind,being,called,a,don key,with,his,millions.
I,thought,watching,the,live,upates,of,the,final,ta ble,that,he,was
trying,to,run,it,over,but,after,watching,on,tv,he, just,had,a,run,of
good,cards