POKER BOT INVASION...

Saw this on MSNBC


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6002298/


Very interesting... You will have to copy and past this link cause Im too dumb to make it clickable...

Not a very long article. Most people who have been around a while know that there are bots playing. Although they arent allowed, they are still relatively easy to beat. The basics of the bots are that they play a set level of hands (therefore you can figure them out easily with poker tracking software) and it would be very hard to program a computer to bluff. Overall, until someone creates really advanced AI I wouldnt be too worried about bots, especially since they cling to micro limits.

Yeah but thats where Im playing now... Guess I better work on my bank roll in tourney land...

This article is from '04. Also if a simple algorithm can beat me at poker, I think I'll quit. If there's some algorithm that can beat poker what's to stop the average person from just running it and making their decisions based on that? Good solid bots have been created for HU limit HE and there is speculation that a bot to beat turbo sngs would be easy to do. Other than that, there's nothing really close to a bot being able to beat NLHE at any decent level.

Bots are very beatable,

If you can't beat a bot I suggest you stop playing cause

against real online players you will get smoked

just IMO cheers

There's more to a bot than just firing it up and letting it do it's thing, these days. A lot of the recent bots come with a profile function.
Decent poker players who also happen to be decent programmers test run their bot profiles and tweak where necessary to produce "winning" bots.

Also, those that are not programmers but are decent poker players and use these types of bots will test run and tweak the profiles into "winning" bots. So much so that they will often then sell their successful profiles to fellow bot users for decent amounts of money.

There are what you might want to call run of the mill bots out there, but there are also ones that have been tweaked, tested, and graphed and once shown to be successful, sold on to other bot users.

This all sounds very interesting. I guess they gennerally play in Heads up compitition. Thats good I never play that. I agree, I think it would be hard to teach a bot to bluff. Not too worried.

i read somewhere that bots only played limit games,
and you could avoid them compleatly by playing no-limit holdem.
i dont know for sure if this is true tho.
has anyone else heard this ?

Maybe it was true once upon a time but it's certainly not the case now. Many bots out there now support cash games, tournaments, and sit and go's, in NL, PL, and FL formats.

The bots were, at least a few months ago only playing fixed limit heads up. And they did pretty well, at least against avarage players.
But to play a full ring game, or to try to build a bot that can play no limit or pot limit is a totaly different thing.
Journalists often love to write articles about the big treat from "the bots", and they usally manage to add a quote from some poker pro in the article, but do they ever ask the computer programmers who build these programs?

Another thing that people who has ever played against a chess computer, or similar must have noticed is that they get very predictable after a while.
Sure they are strong opponents the first couple of games, but one month later u will be sure to beat the bot.

Where are you getting your info? fwiw all the major sites at least have decent bot-detection measures (in fact FTP went too far and banned some legit accounts). As I mentioned, I'd love to play a bot in NLHE deep cash.

Well, the fact is certain bots have been playing more than just FL HU for some time now. A lot longer than just a few months ago too.

You are completely right to an extent. Any of the bots that I have known about playing are completely beatable by damn near anyone. All you have to do is sit in and watch a game for about 15-20 hands and you can pick out which ones are some of the worse bots.
They don't change their play at all with certain hands.
Most of them re-buyin for the same exact amount every time because of the default on their bot program(especially if controlled by the same person).

Now I do think that there probably are some super-secret bots out there that are geniusly programmed that even some of the more advanced players couldn't pick out, but very few. Who knows though, everyday people get smarter and smarter, I'm sure there is more to come. Hopefully the Casinos can find some more deterrents against them.

During that blondini9 bot thread I took it upon myself to find out some information about bots. Up to that point I was very much like the majority of us and only knew a small amount about bots at best.
I was off work at the time ( just as well because of the amount of worthless stuff I found I had to weed through once I started ) and made the best use of google I possibly could.

I even considered starting a thread on the subject after finding out some eye opening things about bots and what seems to be a much bigger culture than many of us could have imagined.
I said as much at the very end of that blondini9 thread and also stated that I was very much in 2 minds whether or not to go ahead with it.
I guess this thread kind of saved me the hassle of it all really. I gathered a lot of information in the end and trust me when I tell you it took me a LONG time to obtain the valid facts and not just the rubbish or hearsay.

Everything that I learned and might touch on in the course of this thread if the situation arises will be 100% fact only and is definitely obtainable though extensive google searches.

I was under the impression that Polaris was the most sophisticated bot out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_(poker_bot)

Polaris is still only a limit holdem bot.. no-limit is still a long way off.

Polaris, although a poker bot, is part of a research project into Artificial Intelligence.

Poker is an interesting way to investigate AI, because poker is a game of incomplete information and thus forces the machine to act without all of the necessary information.. hence its use in AI

I can inform you that you are very much mistaken if you are under the impression that, quote " no-limit is still a long way off".

EDIT: My findings don't involve Polaris

Just to clarify.. by no limit being a long way off.. I mean that a successfully no-limit bot is a long way off. I'm very sure that no-limit bots can be programmed.. but are the successful?

Can you post some links to the the facts that you discovered.

I have known for some time that the bot-culture was fairly big.. some botters claiming to run 'bot farms'

However the general response by members is.. yes bot exist, but their standard of play is quite beatable provided you can actually play poker.

I won't be posting any links until such a time as Nick and Nick only gives me permission to do so.
The biggest problem I have with posting any links is that most if not all of them would be against Cardschat rules. Furthermore, they would most certainly be the sort of links that would inadvertently be advertising unscrupulous web sites etc.

I have saved some of the links that will direct you to bot selling forums, a lot of the juicy factual stuff can be found within those forums. There will be a lot of reading to wade through but the facts are definitely in there.

There were a lot of reasons why I was still undecided in starting a thread on the subject because I felt that a lot of what people would be requesting and insisting on could only be proved by substantial linking.
Another reason would of been the prospect of possibly being treated with a lack of respect without those links.

One particular thread at one of the bot forums ( I would have to find the actual thread as I didn't save/link it at the time ) involves one of their members selling a profile for $1000 at a time. This was someone who purchased a readily available bot ( from that site ) and tweaked the profile within that bot and sold on the setting changes he had made to it. A common practice within that community, I found out.

Here is an interesting and reasonably current (13 November, 2008)article from New Scientist regarding the Polaris "bot" specifically and bots in general, including thoughts from developers of the Polaris program.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...n-players.html

One excerpt regarding computational power stands out:

"The larger the number of possible states in a game, the more memory a computer needs to run its calculations. In 2005 the Alberta group developed new algorithms capable of handling 10 billion game states, up from the previous best of 100 million. The latest algorithms can handle 1000 billion states. But even heads-up, limit hold 'em has around a billion billion (10 to the 18th power; i.e. 10 followed by 18 zeroes) permutations."

I would ask where the average bot user might access something with the kind of computational power of the IBM Roadrunner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Roadrunner a one of a kind supercomputer located at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico which currently is the world's fastest computer AND access to the Polaris Program, which I assume the University of Alberta isn't selling on eBay, as it took them 16 years to develop it.

A Google search is maddening, as the term "poker bots" returns 483,000 hits and, of the first 30 (as far as I had the patience to go), the vast majority are either "reviews"; i.e. touts, outfits trying to sell you one, or, in at least one case, what appear to be programming instructions to build one (I have no idea, my programming "skills" are limited to one very dated class in BASIC; one elderly Pascal class; and one fairly recent class in Visual Basic), including the justification that "it will make you a better poker player".

Are bots out there? Certainly. Are they as good as Crystal Blue insinuates without sources or references? I think not. Will they get there? Probably. But, to quote Michael Bowling, leader of the U of A Computer Poker Research Group, "It'll happen within my lifetime. It could be five years, or 50."

I, for one, am not going to lose any sleep over it.

The IBM Roadrunner certainly looks fast.. but I wonder what its vista score is LOL

Who cares about bots, its the donkeys I'm watching !! lol

A few things I found out about bots and bot users.................

One recently abandoned forum has just under 28,000 registered members.
It's webmaster, leader, coder, "hero" appears to have vanished, all of his followers have not heard from his since around Christmas time.

Most of these bot s/w packages come with "life time" support, so you can imagine the pain when GOD disappeared LOL.
GODS name is/was Simon, some members still post their spasmodically calling out in vain for Simon.

Simon isn't his regular online name, it's his BOT online name. All members at that forum are very strongly advised not to use their own names, they are told to make up a brand new, never used before name that has no connection to their poker site/forum names.

Bot forums are no different to poker forums in respect to how everyday happenings occur. They are a group of people with a common interest who discuss strategies etc on a daily basis.

Use google and see for yourself, type in "poker bots" and search through a few links until you find a bot selling website that also includes a forum within that link/website. You might be surprised.

Bots like Absolute Poker/Ultimatebet and FTP the most. Once you have done your google search and found what you are looking for you will see that for yourself.
Don't think for one moment I making this up or picking on certain poker sites for no reason, google is your friend, use it.

These members and buyers of bot s/w are also strongly advised never to share their online poker site names with each other, never to post screenshots which include their own poker site names and likewise with HH's. They don't want you to get busted see.

When poker sites update their software, so do bot programmer/coders. they are usually back up to speed and good to go within 24 hours in most cases. Their customers can then update their bot s/w because of the "life time" support that came with their purchase.

That will do for now, and remember, google is your friend.

I don't think these poker bots pose any threat to anyone who has any real skill in the game, but at micro tables where you can find some bad players I'm sure some people have lost money to these things.

When I first seen the article just now, I was like "this is super old"

Wasnt worried then, still not worried now

ok how about this? "No-limit bots that can beat 50nl+ on the major poker sites are still a long way off". If there can be a bot there must be an algorithm. If there is an algorithm it could be used by a person. In chess the computer analyzes 20+ moves in advance and all possible opponent moves and can play close to perfect. In poker it's not like the problem is not enough memory to store the information. The skill is in determining the missing information, and computers are a long way off from being very good at that. And also note that on top of having a solid algorithm to beat the game, the computer also has to be able to get passed the security on the sites, which are pretty good at least at the major sites.

Sounds like there would be enough crosstalk to fill an episode of Jerry Jerry Jerry... Me the dumb a$$ who is worried about this problem... one poster bashing my abilities... The educated one... The cocky one... Sounds like maybe The Breakfast Club... Dont know but either way I think this is a problem that faces EVERYONE from the amateur to the seasoned pro its still cheating... You cant take your M I T designed poker robot and sit at the table for you so why should you be allowed to have an antilogarithm play on line for you...

Thanks for the read EVERONE!!!

wtf antilogarithm? Do you know what you're saying? The MIT designers are allowed to play at the table, so if I can't beat a robot they designed I don't think I can hope to beat them. I'm saying that the poker sites do a good job of rooting them out as well. If you play at Pokerstars/FTP there is virtually no chance that bots will have an effect on your winrate. You may run into one or two but the majority get caught and if they take your money you get reimbursed anyway. So no I'm not worried about bots. If you can't beat a bot maybe you should spend more time getting better and less time whining about bots taking over online poker. If you see what you think is a bot, report it. If it's really a bot the sites will catch them. Other than that talking about bots being a widespread problem is just spreading paranoia. I mean the fact that the only article you could find on this topic was written in 2004 speaks volumes.

I have seen bots and have pegged them by the quick response times on every hand. You can push them around raises are folds and checks are raises when playing them.

Concider this..........

Next time you are chasing a bonus or trying to maintain a certain VIP status through dedication, hard work, and long hours are you going to happily let a bot do the same thing when it's owner is tucked up in bed.

Even a break even bot is a successful bot, it has the comfort of re-load bonuses and rake-back and it's owner doesn't have to do squat to earn it save purchasing the product.

Are you happy for this to happen, is it ok with you that bot owners don't need to, or have to, put in the time and effort that you do to achieve these rewards.

Many bot owners are very happy if their purchase only achieves 1.5bb/100 success because they are still making money through the poker sites reward systems. The big difference of course is that their hard work only consists of purchasing the product, and firing it up. You, on the other hand, have to go through all of the physical and emotional stuff and the long hours of grinding to get your rewards. Do you like that deal.

Maybe it doesn't bother you because at the end of the day you are happy in your heart that you are doing it the right way and that's all that matters. You also might think, who cares, I can beat a bot so what's the problem. That's fine I guess if that's how you see things, but is it fair.

A lot of bot users purchase their product purely for the reward systems on offer from the poker sites. It's a very cheap way of getting someone/something else to do the work for them. Does that please you after you have just spent 10 hours grinding away while 12 tabling.

^^^^^^

I just re-read my above post and wanted to point out that it is not addressed to any individual but is a general post for all to consider.
Cheers.

Sorry, but without any proof I think you are over-estimating the problem. I agree poker bots should be illegal. They are. Sites like Pokerstars and Full Tilt actively run tests, not sure about other sites. Full Tilt has even been known to get a few false positives and ban real people they just thought was a bot. Also, there are a lot of real poker players that can't even beat the game for 1.5 at decent levels. Of course the best can but I highly doubt a bot could crush the game at that level. Maybe you could grind breakeven poker at 25nl by just raising with a hand chart and cbetting most flops, but again note that this would be very easy for the site to spot and ban.

So yes I agree with you that we shouldn't just accept bots, but you pretend they are a widespread problem and I disagree. Can you please post your proof? I don't think there are any CC rules against posting links.

Google is a good way for you to find proof if you look hard enough. Proof of what though, I don't know, it all depends on what you are looking for I guess. Any posts I have made in this thread are to highlight awareness of what's out there as I feel that people have a right to know.

To correct you, I didn't state anything about a "widespread problem" even if that might be the case, and I am definitely not pretending anything. I would appreciate it if you didn't post such things because I might view it that you are actually calling me a liar or that I am on some kind of scaremongering mission. Comments like that is one of the reasons why I didn't start a thread about it myself.

I have shared my links with one member here at Cardschat on their request, hopefully that might appease you to some degree. What that person deduces from those links is out of my hands and his opinion might well differ from my own. One thing he will be sure about though imo, is that there are bots aplenty out there, widespread or otherwise.

I am sure that member will post his thoughts once he has had time to go through everything ( trust me, there is a lot to go through ) and hopefully you will not use words like "pretend" once you have read his thoughts.

Also, as I said in an earlier post, until such a time as Nick says so, I won't be posting any of the links in the public domain. I also won't be sharing those links with any other member via PM or whatever for the time being, because I feel that a lot of people using them wouldn't research them correctly and would lead to inaccurate comments.

I might not even post the links either way, I don't know yet tbh, because when all is said and done, I am trying very hard to act in a responsible manner over everything I have found out and have no desire to cause trouble in any way.

From what I have found out it appears that they are not illegal, just that poker sites prohibit them in their TOC's. Somewhat akin to how casino's frown upon, and not allow card counting at their blackjack tables.

Yes, some people have been pulled up or banned perhaps wrongly because poker sites felt they might have been using bots etc. Poker sites also have better means of detection, via the client software that we all downloaded and have updated on a regular basis.

They retrieve information from your hard drive and can detect possible bot usage that way. The ability to screenscrape is one example. Also, poker sites might get in touch with you wanting some answers simply because you have visited certain web pages on the net. Pages like I have visited while researching bots. ( another reason why posting links about it isn't an ideal thing to do )
I'm not making this up, it's a fact.

Bot programmers are well aware of these things and every time a poker site sends out an update, bot programmers get to work and make one of their own to counter-act it. They also work hard on detection avoidance with such things as stealth mode and VM.

Crystal has given me a load of info on bots, which I am trawling through.. because I am interested.

From what I can gather, its pretty safe to say that bots are not sophisticated enough to be playing poker at higher stakes.. so lets use 50NL as the cut off point.

So lets assume a bot making 1BB/100 at 50NL

Thats about 50c per hour (assuming 50 hands per hour)

Now a bot could play 10 tables at a time per account.

That makes it $5 per hour.

To fool the poker sites, bots would have to play a reasonable number of hours a day.. no human can play 24/7 so lest play 6 hours a day for 5 days a week.

That gives $150 per week.. per account.

Multiple accounts are possible by the use of anonymous proxies or anonymous VPN clients.. so I don't know 10 separate bank accounts isn't really stretching it too far.

So by those crude calculations.. a figure of up to $1500 per week i possible via botting.

Not a bad little earner really!!!

These bots are going to play very poor tight nitty poker.. so the question, which Zach is probably one of the best people to answer.. is this

Is it possible to grind out 1BB/100 at up to 50NL playing very tight nitty ABC poker?

As for the legality of bots... they are not illegal. they are against the terms and conditions of poker sites, but their usage would never land you in court.

These are just my findings from doing some research.

How many bots are there out there? Thats probably a question we will never be able to obtain a true answer on.