Poker is all about math?

I might be getting too into this, but I was reading a small section in phil's little green book on BOW and game theory. It was some interesting stuff. Basically the person shoves all in when he has a draw(even gutshot) or the nuts. Through some game theory and probability, he'll always end up making a profit long term. With pot odds and probability like this, it really seems like poker is all about math and can be dominated with a strong understanding of game theory. Math is considered the universal language. Still I dont think it's easy but it seems like if you building a system completely based on probability and +ev, even without skill, you can always make a profit.

You do need math to be successful but you can't fully rely on math. If I knew that you fully played based upon math all I would have to do is make a bet that doesn't give you the correct odds to call and would get you to fold most of the time unless you had me beat. at that I am easily figuring out if I am beat or taking down pots with nothing because you don't have the odds to call. You have to use math but you have to play a bit over the edge and let skill take over for some situations!

math is super important for online poker especially, cause there's less tells and stuff so it's just about making +ev decisions all the time, and if you don't the long run will catch you faster cause there's tons more hands

lol...BOW

MrDuff1331 said:

You do need math to be successful but you can't fully rely on math. If I knew that you fully played based upon math all I would have to do is make a bet that doesn't give you the correct odds to call and would get you to fold most of the time unless you had me beat. at that I am easily figuring out if I am beat or taking down pots with nothing because you don't have the odds to call. You have to use math but you have to play a bit over the edge and let skill take over for some situations!

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:dito: Math is no longer a strong subject for me, (short story, nasty car crash a few years back, head injury, memory sucks now) so while I am able to still do the basics I don't go that deep into it. I can calculate simplistic hand odds, pot odds, implied odds but watching your opp and taking notes is also very important. I've made bad +ev calls against villians I have a good read on and am confident they are bluffing or was betting their drawing hand and missed. If poker relied solely on math then reads wouldn't be necessary. I think there is a balance needed to play poker well.

Math is important, and yes odds should eventually reward you, however, in big tourneys you also have to be able to read your opponents and listen to your gut. There are simply too many hands to count on odds always working out. Eventually you will lose your whole pot despite the odds. So do the math, but use your head and heart as well.

math is an important aspect in poker, however, playing youre opponent is also important.

ugh, playing live the other night I could barely keep up with the bet size let alone what was in the pot. (Perhaps it was B-52s that I was drinking) Note to self, don't do that anymore.

Math, yup I know it is important, and yet it alludes me. I am guessing that it just takes practice, and more practice, and even more practice of sitting there doing the math.

Ursala said:

ugh, playing live the other night I could barely keep up with the bet size let alone what was in the pot. (Perhaps it was B-52s that I was drinking) Note to self, don't do that anymore.

Math, yup I know it is important, and yet it alludes me. I am guessing that it just takes practice, and more practice, and even more practice of sitting there doing the math.

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lol i hate how the dealers will count the other plays stacks, but then you ask them "whats the pot" and they just spread out the pot. so basically youre looking at a bunch of 5 dollar chips and have to estimate

Yeah but that BOW guy had an incredible bankroll and most of us dont have that. If we would play like BOW we would be bankrupt in a few days!!!!
(i have a feeling i have seen that guy play on pstars a few months ago
he played like phil said. he played on different tables and went a lot of time all inn with draws and het really dominated the tables. i have never seen that before!!!!)

If you're a genius and can count the cards like that, then absolutely math is important. But let's be realistic: how many people can REALLY keep up with that?

At its core, poker is just a betting game, using cards as a random variable. So, poker is all about math. When calling or making a bet, math determines how profitable you're going to be in the long-run. The problem is, as a poker player, you don't have access to all the numbers. And that's why it's such a challenge.

Having a read on an opponent merely gives you a better assumption of his range, therefore making your math better than someone with no idea what his opponent is holding. But, your math still isn't going to be 100% accurate.

That said, you don't have to be a math whiz to succeed at poker. With so many repeating situations (top pair vs flush draw, for example), experience can make up for a lot of mathematical deficiency. But, an understanding of the math right out of the gates can save a new poker player a lot of time and money.

gkh said:

Basically the person shoves all in when he has a draw(even gutshot) or the nuts. Through some game theory and probability, he'll always end up making a profit long term. With pot odds and probability like this, it really seems like poker is all about math and can be dominated with a strong understanding of game theory. ..........even without skill, you can always make a profit.

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Not sure what you read or how you understood it, but this is just plain nuts. Especially in a thread where you claim to apply math to poker. It doesn't make sense to commit yourself when the odds don't justify it. Negative eV situation. I understand that the shove is stronger than the call . . . so maybe if you're playing against a bunch of wimps, shove more often. But to make a blanket statement always shove with any draw is more than stupid.

derekjonas56 said:

If you're a genius and can count the cards like that, then absolutely math is important. But let's be realistic: how many people can REALLY keep up with that?

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Anyone that takes the game seriously.

Anyway, online poker is all about math. Even if you don't think about it that way, classifying opponents as loose or tight, willing to call C-bets, etc. is all about math. You might not think about it, but you use the fact that a player is calling 20% of hands or 45% of hands when you make your decisions. That's still math, even if its not what you think of when you hear poker and math in the same sentence.