Playing Professionally (Live): Advice.

Hi all...first post.

So, I'm 21 y/o senior college student...been playing Hold 'Em for six years or so.

I graduate in April, and I've been thinking about playing 'professionally' between then and when I start working f/t in September.

I've never been a great tournament player or a particularly profitable online player, but I tend to clean up playing live.

I've been dabbling with 2/5 NL lately at local casinos (in Vancouver, Canada). I've played countless sessions over the years, but only now am I approaching it with a work-like mentality. Some ten sessions in I've turned a very good profit (I've actually yet to turn in a losing session...I know I'm due). I'm looking for general advice.

I've established that I could handle 4-5 sessions per week at 4-5 hours per session. I'm hoping to profit 5k per month at this rate (I know that's pretty ambitious). Some general questions I have include:

-Should I get up and leave once I've met quota, or should I focus on putting in my hours? (I understand the general consensus is to put in your hours, but in my experience, if I make quota in a hurry I tend to sit on my chip stack for several hours without much action).

-Should I stay in Vancouver? There is good action here, but if I want to do this for a living for several months, would I be better to hop a plane elsewhere?

Any general advice on playing live professionally would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

First and most important question imo is do you have a back up plan/safety net?
Do you have parrents/friends/family/trust fund to fall back on if all goes to shit and u lose your entier roll?
How big is your bankroll and how much do you have set aside for stuff like rent,food ect for the rough patches?
Have you keeped records of your wins and loses and if u did how much where they?

I think u need to answer thouse questions before u can expect to get any advice that will help u alot.

First thing u have to do is make sure your not deciving your self.
Its all well and good to say you had a winning seasion at the tables with out factoring in stuff like gas and food at the casino when you have a job to go back to but if you start doing that with poker as your only source of income its gonna turn bad real quick.

Also while u can make a living just playing live i would def look into geting into online and learning to multitable.



Honestly i dont really know what it takes to go pro since im not one but i wise you the best of luck in your attempted, just make sure u have a (realistic)plan so you dont end up broke in a few months.

You need to get your hours in, If you meet your quota for the day great but sit there and grind it out, nothing would suck more than running good one day and finding yourself losing several buy-ins for the following couple days.

You should check out Dusty Schmidts book "Treat Your Poker Like A Business" I've read it and you should follow his advice and a lot of those guidelines.

I would suggest staying put but maybe traveling occasionally to other card rooms abroad and scope them out before committing yourself.

Playing live for a living is tough. I think you should try out playing online with Hold Em Manager or PokerTracker 3 first. That software will give you an edge if used correctly.

Where you are lucky to be dealt 20 hands an hour playing live you can attain 60+ hands an hour and that can multiply depending on how many tables you have open. Higher volume of hands = more $$$. But make sure you are stacked for the games you want to play. $2/$5 NL Live is comparable to .25c/.50c online (skill wise). Make sure you do your rounds and account for variance, downswings, upswings, and most importantly bankroll management. That book I suggested is a must read.

Thanks guys.

Sorry - in class and not paying attention...forgot to discuss my bankroll, which was the primary thing I wanted to ask about. I'm planning on staking myself with a $20k bankroll. I really would like to hear an array of opinions about that one...

Also, with regards to playing online...I've simply never been able to turn a profit playing ring games. It just seems to be a totally different game to me. I NEVER tilt live (and of course I've seen every beat in the book), but online I tend to tilt to no end...I also seem to get horrible reads playing online...there is something about sitting at a table across from a player that is much more conducive to the way I play cards.

$20K gets you 100 Buy In's at $1/$2 NL (Which is a much safer approach to trying to play for a living 100 Buy-in's will more than account for swings)

$20K gets you 40 Buy-In's at your $2/$5 NL game.

As a general rule of thumb I would stick to the 100 Buy-In strategy. Because then you are accounting for a lot. Sure it'll take awhile to rack up $50K to play $2/$5 safely.

A lot of people will tell you that 20 Buy-In's at a particular level is fine. But, massive downswings can occur and a 20 buy-in downswing is not unrealistic.

I was the same way believe me. Winning live player, losing online player. Once I picked up hold 'em manager it improved my profit significantly. And is an essential tool to play online poker with.

find negraneaus article on FT great read

A few thoughts:

- Personally I'd banish any ideas of a "quota". Stay in games as long as they're good and you can play well enough to beat them. Online there's always another game waiting and you can always find fish. Live you don't have that luxury so if you find yourself a good table I'd be mining it for all its worth.

- Seriously consdier reading Barry Greenstein's Ace on the River. There's very little poker strategy content in it, but there's a lot of great life advice for people who want to play live poker full time.

Thanks. Good advice. I'll pick up Greenstein's book as well.

I am a much better live player than online - Playing one table at a time has it's advantages - you get to know your opponents on a much more personal level - other than the exact % they VPIP and PFR and what their AgF is or whatever, or how often they fold to a CBet or how their stack has been doing since they sat down at the table.

But you can pay attention to players - the way they put chips in the pot, the way they go from talking to hushing up all of a sudden, etc. You can get a lot more information on a player playing live - and your intuition comes into play.

Also you get people who just want to gamble and don't know all the math of cards at the stakes you want to play -

One point I'd like to argue is that if the 2/5 NL is equatable to a .25/.50 NL online, then the point that must be argued is that your profit from playing one game at 2/5 NL live should equate to correctly playing 6-8 tables online based on hands per hour at the .25/.50 stakes - plus B&M does have it's upsides - like not waiting for funds, and the poker site not falling off the face of the planet with your entire roll on it.

I'm tired now, so that's all I've got.

WG

Dont.

What u have to remember is that when u play online and u are multitabling, ur profit per table would go down ( its like playing 25 opponents rather than 8), thus u would be unable 2 capatilise fully at each situation. BUt since u are playing so many tables, ur profit per hour could be grater than playing a single table. As long as u can multitable effectively. U would also be playing more hands per hour thus increasing ur profit even grater.

So statistically u can earn more playing online at 25c/50c at 8 tables than one $2/5$ table live. Look at the maths:

One table live, u make 60$ on average playing 20 hands an hour. That gives u 3$ profit per hand.

at 25/50 tables, could average 15c per hand.
times 60 hands per hour would = 9$
Times by 8 tables = 72$ per hour

Thats why it can be more profitable online than live

^^^^This.

Plus:

Are you debt free?

Do you have 3-6 months (preferably a years) living expenses saved up, apart from your bankroll?

What's your hourly win rate?

I have never farted.

If you are doing that well in Vancouver, no reason to go anywhere else until you're rolled for much higher stakes. I would imagine the competition in AC and Vegas would be similar. With your BR you will clean up playing 1/2 and never have to worry about a bad run breaking you. Plus, typically, the 1/2 competition is much softer and can be just as profitable if you are good at playing and exposing your opponent's weaknesses. Best of luck in your endeavour!

20k is plenty to play if you are only going to play for a few months. Grinding 1/2 nl is not fun but can be done depending on max buy in, if 100 is max buy in then NO!! but 300-400 max buy you can have enough money on the table to make some cash.
1/2 nl usually will be 1/2/ 15-20 depending on players.
I would play 2/5 nl 200 min and no max buy. This give you the chance to make alot more in a good session. As far as 2/5 being like .25/.50 online hah. I average 50 + an hour and once I hit my goal for the day I am out. (500) But I will also leave if I am not making money and will not stay untill my buy in is gone hoping to hit. There is always another day.

I have been playing for almost a year now with out a job and it is a grind I am averaging 40-50 hours a week live. On occasion I will travel to play , but this really is more of a vacation and cuts in to profits. So if you can get good action close, thats your best choice.

GL and I hope you crush.

LOL. Classic.

Thanks a lot. This was very useful. The max buy-in playing 1/2 in Vancouver casinos is $200 (except for during the upcoming Olympics, when apparently the stakes are doubling). Interestingly, tonight I played my first 1/2 session in many many months while waiting for a seat at 2/5. Completely different game. In order to isolate or at least push out the fish pre-flop, you have to raise it up to at least 20...a follow-up bet on the flop and you've already committed at least 25% of your stack. It's ludicrous. I tumbled my $200 as quickly as you could say 'get me the hell off the 1/2 table.' Fortunately, I sat down at 2/5 and stacked up a little over 1200 in only a few hours.

With regards to what others were asking...yes, I have enough funds saved up that - should I fall flat on my face - I won't be on the street.

Also - wow, 40-50 hours per week is certainly a grind. I'm just getting my feet wet in terms of approaching this like a job and I had established that any more than 20 hours per week for me would be very tough to manage. Either I need to toughen up or you're grinding haaaaard

I'm glad to hear you have an emergency fund. I hear some other stuff that I don't like.

We don't want to "push out fish" we want to pull them in... raising to $20 in a 1/2 game is lunacy. I also noticed that you failed to mention your win rate...

When I log that into my super computer I get: this guy should not be making a run at playing 2/5 professionally.

I don't want to discourage you from playing the game but I certainly don't want to encourage you to jump head first into financial disaster. Take a month, make a deposit, buy pokertracker, play 20k hands, and look at your game.

you can try both online and live.. How are you with tournaments?? I notice i play tournaments Great online and Ring better live. As i have made the adjustment so far this yera and have shown profitable results. B

But also factor in your travel, food expense, and LIVE games people tend to forget how much they put in in tips for drinks/dealer

get a job count the money
play poker do the same
after a year long sample see where you made the most money im betting on the job

You'd be surprised how profitable $1/$2 NL Live is in LV and AC...

Tourists = Fish, Fish = Piss Poor Players, Piss Poor Players = $ in my pocket.

I haven't played any higher stakes in LV or AC, but I was doing fine swimming with the fish and the occasional reg.

LOL

This line of work may not suit you.

Nah, not surprised, I've been to A.C. twice in the last 2 weeks, netted a combined $550 between both trips playing 1-2, each session about 5 hours. Last time I went to Vegas for two days, made about $800. From what OP is saying, the competition seems pretty soft up there too so I was just telling him the competition would probably be similar (just as soft) in A.C. and Vegas - it's all relevant of course to the casino, time of day/week, table, etc. So no real reason to leave until he was ready for higher limits.

when you go are you a tourist?or a shark?and what does that have to do with some kid going pro the truth is making 4BBs an hr is good at 1-2 thats $8 an hr hed be better off learning to deal

What? You lost me. I make much more that 4 bb an hour when I play, on average.

Well I'm a live cash game player $2/$5 or $3/$5 here in california. I don't why online people think live play is a result to less skill. First off most online players play micros first mistake. Micros are good for learning that's it. First thing you have to have to play poker is money. Live players know how to do with pressure because of the money. Most casinos use a 40BB structure so you don't need $20k. I been playing for 3 months 6 days a week. I turned $2000 bankroll into $6300. Which it could have been way more but had a few doctors on my table and took a few bad beats never again. My point is confidence is the key if you had few bad sessions you should make a goal for each day once you reach that goal quit. I set that mark at 2or3 buyins. Unless I got some complete donks at my table. Who are just giving away money.

1/2 Live If you raised say to 6.00 you will get 5+ callers if not the whole table 12.00 will often get 5+ callers so to isolate you must go 15.00 +

Depends where you play. Out in Southern Cali, a 3 - 4 bb raise will usually get the job done, maybe 2 -3 callers tops. In AC that's a standard "everyone play, family pot" type of raise. So yeah, in A.C. you would need to go 6-7 bb to isolate.

Hmm I agree with the guy you quoted KK. @ $1/$2NL they're there to play and $8 wont stop tourists. $8 wont stop regs either. 1/2 live should be played like a standard 2/4 NL in terms of PF action and post flop pot sized bets. a raise to $16 PF in $1/$2 NL Live is not uncommon at all, and pretty much is a standard "protective bet" when playing live, if you have a card room where $8 PF @ $200NL will get players to fold... I'd be scared to play there.

I don't know how to respond to this without coming across as a smart ass...

Whoops!

To get a closer measure of your skillset, recommend you attend one of the bootcamps offered by the pros. You'll get advice, learn more about competing, and start networking with those truly "in the know." Then determine your approach to gaming. (You might find that going for an academic PhD would be better [smile].)

im beinh honest here...im going to vegas in june for 20 nights...im planning to play 1/2 cash games or prob 2/5 depending on action....but im getting scared...if i wake up with a hand on the button, and 4 callers already, should i just go and put my full 400 dollar to get it heads up???... i mean ive read 16 dollars to isolate, id be afraid to get rerasied :-)