Playing with out a HUD

Do you think having HUD is a must in online poker to be successful? I am a break even player with rake back with out a HUD. I noticed a big difference when I used the trial version of pokeredge on Fulltilt. Mainly in rush poker by stealing pots when i could see how much a player calls/folds on flop and turn. I feel like it is a form of tilt when you do not have HUD; Trying to figure out if there playing the board are playing my stats.

well for starters PokerEdge is totally against the rules on ALL the sites.

^Whats the diff between HEM/PT3 & PE? Does PE access an online database in real time or somethin'?

Not sure what you mean 'in real time'? It's similiar to PT3 & HEM but has a few million tracked hands (or more).
I've never met anyone who's used it who didn't know it was against the rules (they tell you it is on their site but then profess that it'll go undetected by the pokersites).

^By in real time I mean it adds to the overall database as anyone with the client plays.

Buster, theres a free HUD you can get, I cant recall the name but its not bad, and legal anywhere HEM and PT3 are.

It depends on how many tables you play. Sure if you are mass multi tabling then it's handy as you can't keep track of players stats and who's likely to shove with garbage etc, calling to many pots pre flop etc. I find it brilliant for that and knowing who you can call a raise off or re-raise with and just out play them so easily.

If you only play 1-4 tables I don't think the advantage is that huge as you can process most of what happens quite easily even with 4 tables on the go.

i much prefer a HUD as i'm always looking to gain an edge on opponents

Of course it is an advantage to use a HUD however there are lots of very successful online players who do not use one.

^^ Yeah I agree if you only play 1-4 tables and take good notes you can be fine without a HUD. Can be better with one though and having poker tracking software can help fix leaks. Any extra edge can give you more $ per hour as long as you are playing some volume.

If ya only sit and load up a table or 2 a couple of hours a night here and there prolly not worth buying. If you play 20 hours+ per week and load up 4+ tables at a time may be a wise investment.

I only play one table at a time and I don't use a HUD.

Personally, I'm not sure that it would necessarily give you an advantage against good players. Good players vary their play in response to specific situations and specific opponents. So everything might average out to show certain numbers in the HUD which have no real bearing on how that person actually plays.

But if you're curious, try it out and see if it helps, hinders, or neither. And let us know how it goes!

I didn't use one in the past and would still be fine live, but can't imagine playing online without one now. I feel like it's a big advantage over the people who don't use one. Especially when multitabling.

Fully agree. My HEM is currently down (HEM support doing their best but speak in a computer language that I find very difficult to understand) and I don't want to play until it's fixed!

I'm just using a HUD for a very short time and I find it useful but I don't play based in it. The biggest advantage I find in a HUD is to measure range and agro of a player and that's it, I took out all the rest of the stats.

For instance if I'm in the button and the player before me raises with a VPIP of 10%, I get out of his way unless I have a big hand. If the player has a VPIP of 50% I'll call even with speculative hands.

One case that happened today (just now actualy) where I used HUD stats was with a LAG player that either played from the BB with anything or shoved. His VPIP was around 30% IIRC and his PFR was around 25%. I raised late position with A4s, he shoved. It was a coin flip (49/51 I think). It was a tough call but I called. He had AQs and I was very lucky (flushed in the flop), but I wouldn't make that decision without the HUD stats.

Wow, really? I've used PT3 in the past (but only for the trial period, was always just too lazy to take the time with it, although I've watched a few training vids. re: HEM & PT3 & did actually like it) but mostly played MTT & didn't feel I needed it (I'm a HUGE note taker).
Lately I've been playing a bit of micro cash tables, thinking once again > "I should get onto getting HEM or PT3" but still haven't. I'm often playing 10-tables & have lately been playin' a really Laggy style & still don't feel I need it (although I'm sure I'd feel otherwise if I'd been using it.... which is pretty obvious). Like I said though, I'm a HUGE notetaker.... not a player on the table goes without notes & colour code.
As far as PokerEdge goes, I'm not sure how they collect data but it'd obviously be advanatageous to use it, until you get busted with it that is. Incidentally, I have a few friends who've used the 'Free Trial' with PE & PokerCrusher & within 24hrs. of using it they were contacted by the pokersite & were told to stop using it or they'd be kicked off the site. I've also read on the PE forums where they assure you that you won't be caught (& I guess they're always doing updates so it'll go undetected). Not worth the risk imo.

I take notes and color code opponents and still find the simplicity of having VPIP/PFR/AF (and a bunch more stats at the click distance) quite useful. I'm not a big fan of people playing stats based poker though.

Yes, i am not i big fan of the HUD either, wish it was banned. I haven't seen a training website that teaches people to play with out a HUD. There always looking at the HUD and explaining what to do based on how that player plays. Does any body know where I can get a free HUD for the merge network.

I honestly dont understand why people think they dont need a HUD.

Poker is a competitive activity so you should be looking for every advantage possible.

I dont know if modern trainers make you run faster but I have never seen anyone take the risk and turn up to a race wearing 1950s running shoes.

Times change, modern players use HUDs.

I'd be so lost without a HUD.

The analogy I would use is that of someone giving out directions using either a map or a sat nav. If you've only got one guy asking you for directions, you'll be fine, but if you have 5 or 10 guys all asking for directions it's going to get awful confusing and a lot harder.

Anyone playing without a HUD is not maximising their ROI, simple as. You may say you can play perfectly well without it, but if you can play better with a HUD then you should have one, simple as.

HUDS do not give you any advantage.

What they do do, is make your life simpler. If we were all the diligent poker players we really want to be, we would be able to take all the same notes the trackers do, and then rapidly organize that data into usable information so that at any point in time we know exactly how imperfect our information really is.

Now I don't know about you, but my life's ambition is to become a computer, and I only use the trackers to 'guide' my way...........

I'd be willing to bet that they do give you an advantage. It would be impossible to play 12 tables, make a solid decision on every street AND take notes on every single hand you see played, even to the level which a HUD does.

So you are saying that if you didnt use a HUD you would keep such meticulous notes that you would be able to identify every player at a new table whom you have played more than 500 hands with, and be able to identify their general playing style.

All this from their screen names.

Wonder if Shaun F'n Deeb thinks so?
There's a myriad of MTT players who don't use one.

I always play without hud because i don't like it, but what i hear from pros its pretty much a must these days on the medium/ high stakes if you are multi tabling..

Definitely not, because I hate taking notes. I do it begrudgingly. But as stated, if I were that cracker poker player I would love to be, I would be taking serious notes. So I got a tracker to , well, track for me......to help me organize my thinking.

Hard to say, but by 500 hands I would be aware of them, and have some idea about past play with them. But since I have always been more tourney/SnG oriented, I don't have all that many names in my 'over 500 hands' club. In that club, 95% will be CC'ers.

Of the rest in that club, they will probably be from RUSH ring games. It is the only area where I would have gotten that many hands in total.

But then, long ago I realizes that a more valuable (to me) thing about HUD's were that they could give me a good idea about how player xyz is playing today...this session.
So I set my HUD to normally only show the last 5-10 orbits worth of hands.

Larger sampling, like all time stats against the general populace, are better used when compiling notes about individual players. This would be especially good info when compared to the daily (5-10 orbit) stats for particular players. Almost like I can see your mood.

So, for simplicities sake, I would like my HUD to show a stat like VPIP 18/28 suggesting he is normally an VP18 guy, but today he is tilting at VP28.

I have just under 30K players in my DB whom I have over 500hands on and almost 120K players in total.

I honestly would find it difficult to keep track.

Certainly in the medium stakes it's the norm for multitablers. I've read a few pieces from high stakes / nosebleed regs (definitely Dwan, pretty sure Galfond and others too) saying that they don't really use HUDs at those stakes because there's a limited player pool, they generally know their opponent's games pretty well and it's really more about out-levelling their opponents as opposed to just playing to their stats on a HUD.

I know I've heard interviews where Daniel Negreanu says he does use one but I think particularly among the old-school live pros that he'd be an odd one out. AFAIK Ivey has never used one, pretty sure Dwan claims he never has either and I'd be very surprised if Patrik / Gus / Lindgren / Greenstein / etc use them either. Again though, nosebleeds is a very different beast to the lower stakes.

It depends what you play.

If you play high stakes cash/high stakes tournaments, you are likely to run into the same players over and over again. In which case, reads are far more important than stats.

Stats are useful when multitabling to be able to quickly place different types of players into different categories. E.g. you might only have 20 hands on someone but if they are 60/0/1.0 then it's pretty easy to see how to play against them. Whereas if you were 12 tabling you probably won't have time to watch every hand and notice that he's limp/folding a ton.

Sorry. I don't share your opinion. HUDs are the equivalent of stealing signs in baseball or video taping the opposing coaches. Yes it may give you more info to make a decision. However, all I have seen ITT is people justifying bad decisions based on VPIP.


Go play live and see how well that HUD works for ya. Use your frickin brain for once and learn to read players and remember their patterns.

If you are 8+ tabling... even with a HUD you are just playing a video game.

If everyone is "stealing signs" or "video taping the opposing coaches" and your the only one not doing it too, then you are the guy who cant see the wood for the trees. This is especially true when there is no rule preventing you form "stealing signs" or "video taping the opposing coaches".

Haha you sir are a grade A hater.

I don't know much about baseball but is what you talking about against the rules?

Justifying bad decisions? Want me to point you to tons of midstakes regs who crush and use a HUD? Do they all make bad decisions? Or do you just not use a HUD because you're scared of change and have no idea what you would do with it. Ooooh scary numbers!

No offence but I looked at what you play (FTP + Stars) and if that's what stakes you play I'm not sure you are in any position to tell other people that they are making "bad decisions" based on VPIP or anything else.

As for live, I play live twice a week in the local casino, and I don't struggle without a HUD. It's one table playing 20 hands an hour if you're lucky, it's barely even poker.

And I don't even understand the last sentence. That sentence makes as much sense as a chocolate teapot

I use a HUD for NL cash games. That is not an edge I would want to give up. There are too many parameters I could never keep track of in my head that go into my decision making.

I don't use a HUD for STT super turbos. They would require a special sort of HUD, as game flow is more important in them than fixed values. Constants such as "PFR %" or "CO Steal %" aren't meaningful if considered independently of players' stack sizes, the stage of the game, the number of players left in the tournament, etc. and AFAIK I can't create a HUD around those factors. So I rely on my own notes and observations (and of course general strategic knowledge of the game itself) instead. However, outside of the game, I'll occasionally go through my database and try to more closely dissect some of the players I've built ample history with.

man do i ever want some chocolate tea now...?

huds are just another tool to help you along. if you are a 4+ table grinder they become more useful. so long as it doesn't become a crutch that you have to rely on in order to play. at which point you aren't a poker player just an online grinder. no biggie. i don't use one now but i have stopped grinding so that makes sense. they can never replace the innate intution or skill you have only help you come to a decision. i'm kinda against them from a purist sense. but i would never fault someone using one if they feel it needed.

Main reason I dont want to use one, worried id get so used to it I couldnt put it down.

I learnt my lesson with cigarettes.

I'm not sure why people are trying to convince non-HUDers to use one. Message to all those that aren't using a HUD, please feel free to continue doing so. Don't let Pascal and Stu Et al tell you what to do and how to play. They may not like it, but let me tell you... You're ALWAYS welcome at my table.

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