Online "RIGGED AND CHEATERS"

quads · Oct 7, 2007

With all that’s been taking place lately with online poker, it amazes me that so many people act surprised, or still believe playing online is safe and the same as live.

1) High stakes cheaters on Absolute. (Seeing other players cards)
2) bodog reimbursing players from BOT infestation.
3) poker stars freezing winners purse from multi-accounting in WCOOP 5 million.

This is only what the sites were forced to contend with. Imagine what was swept under the carpet over the years trying to protect the integrity of online poker.

The biggest threat of course without having an insider at a site, is the pro. collusion teams. I personally know a poker player from a local live club, who was part of a team that was nailed at Poker Stars. Their accounts were seized and all the players were banned. Total seized was over $7,000.00 dollars from 5 players. Not one word was printed about this incident, or what they did with the money.

With all the software support available today, most online players that rely on it, couldn’t and don’t have a chance playing live. Half of them couldn’t tell you pot or hand odds without it.

Online poker can not guarantee a fair game one way or another. Not that cheating doesn’t take place live, but a 99% better chance of it not happening.

You can make money online, but you better invest in every edge you could buy, and learn where and what is safest to play. And even after doing that if you still have any money left to risk, there are still no guarantees.

Having an experienced great game is what it was all meant to be. Online poker is going backwards.

thielcats · Oct 7, 2007

Hmmm...interesting post. The thing about pokerstars is unreal.

KMC1828 · Oct 7, 2007

thielcats said:
Hmmm...interesting post. The thing about Pokerstars is unreal.

no its not. its completely realistic. the winning account wasnt in the guy's name.

nevadanick · Oct 7, 2007

Not much of a surprise. Online players and hackers haven't invented cheating, they just keeping refining THEIR skills. Why learn how to play poker and contend with Lady Luck when you can have it ALL...??...

From just what I have seen, Pokerstars seems to put the most effort and money into site safety, fairness and security. But then, they should. They are the biggest online poker cardroom.

There was a forum post recently on another poker social site where one of the members reported opening their e-mail one morning to find a note from Pokerstars that 'x' amount of dollars had been refunded to their account. Reason - redistributing funds to players who lost due to collusion at the table they were playing at. They weren't even aware of the collusion at the time.

Yes, I do think there is far more cheating online than in live poker rooms, but it is by individuals and groups, not by the sites themselves. It ranges in everything from single players figuring out a multitude of ways to create multiple accounts to complex sophiscated schemes.

Lends a whole new twist and meaning to 'gambling' doesn't it??

quads · Oct 7, 2007

Collusion teams much more serious then most want to admit. Also runs rampart throughout college dorms.
There are big member teams, that mix it up so well, will never get nailed. These teams are smart enough not to concentrate on big stakes, considering the lack of action up there.

MrVictrum · Oct 7, 2007

I've always wonder how some players get online play calling with crappy hands that wouldn't have a chance in a live game. I mean come on now , you got to admit that you wouldn't be in a tourney calling an Allin with 7 4 off suit against poket K's or A's and winning, I know that it's poker but let's be real!!!

bbd7777 · Oct 7, 2007

the first poster was right... online poker is a joke... i have been thru the whole meat grinder and come out on the other side... all i do not is play the freerolls to waste time at work ... i wouldnt deposit another nickel.. ive seen to much... just check for mariojr on full tilt... he plays 9 tables at once 1/2 dollar and doesnt always win every pot but quits once hes a certain percentage ahead... playing online poker has been a great experience for me being in ta state that doesnt have casinos, i was able to experience tournament poker without having to lose a crap load of money or go to vegas and lose a couple grand trying to learn the basics...

Stick66 · Oct 7, 2007

I thought the bots were at Full Tilt, not Bodog. Maybe both?

quads · Oct 7, 2007

MrSticker said:
I thought the bots were at Full Tilt, not Bodog. Maybe both?

Think your right Stick. Sorry about that. At least Full Tilt admitted it, in an obvious attempt to make us think they have it under control. LOL

julyangels · Oct 7, 2007

Scary

I'm just trying to think how much money I have lost to cheaters? It really never enters my mind when I sit at a table online, quite unfortunate. Why does it have to get ruined, when it was to be more than this? Just a bummer.
~july

wsorbust · Oct 7, 2007

At least they're not just denying and ignoring things that might be going on. It could be a lot worse, though I wonder how those PPA freerolls fill up somehow after running for the past couple months. I suppose Stars just doesn't pay out money to multiple/re-entrants. You know you're in trouble when obvious shit is going down and no one cares and can do anything about it. I applaud the sites obvious public attempts to tell people they are trying, even if they hardly care. What people don't notice or can't see, can't hurt them, huh?

jonfelkin · Oct 7, 2007

Who cares about Bots? Arnt bots the kinda opponent you want to play againts always playing the percentages even when a human would guess they are behind, If i was Full Tilt i would say come here you can beat the Bots easy they will call as long as you give them good odds on there bottom pair.

wsorbust · Oct 7, 2007

the kinda opponent you want to play againts always playing the percentages

Isn't that called "A Pro"?
Even though you might like your chances, there are, and have been bots that make/have made a great deal of money in the long-term, solely based on percentages and programming. A group of people using the same bot sit down at 10 tables each and you've got problems I would think. Collusion, etc..?

quads · Oct 8, 2007

jonfelkin said:
Who cares about Bots? Arnt bots the kinda opponent you want to play againts always playing the percentages even when a human would guess they are behind, If i was Full Tilt i would say come here you can beat the Bots easy they will call as long as you give them good odds on there bottom pair.

Obviously, the bots are doing well enough (probably at lower stakes) for the site to make an announcement about them, along with refunding moneys. This certainly would point the ears of players, and not the type of advertising they had in mind. For a site to announce this, it must be a serious problem there. Regardless it's not the major threat for online poker.

Makwa · May 27, 2008

quads said:
[/i]

Obviously, the bots are doing well enough (probably at lower stakes) for the site to make an announcement about them, along with refunding moneys. This certainly would point the ears of players, and not the type of advertising they had in mind. For a site to announce this, it must be a serious problem there. Regardless it's not the major threat for online poker.

And the major threat is... (the envelope please)...

gns2003 · May 27, 2008

That is why I only play freerolls and for pennies. If someone wants to cheat me out of my pennies then so be it. I will stick my head in the sand, call it a cost of fun, and enjoy the show...

OzExorcist · May 27, 2008

quads said:
Online poker can not guarantee a fair game one way or another. Not that cheating doesn’t take place live, but a 99% better chance of it not happening.

Sorry, but you're 100% kidding yourself if you think you're protecting yourself from cheating by playing live, or that live poker is somehow cleaner than online.

Collusion, soft playing and chip dumping are rampant in live poker, especially in tournaments where players often have a piece of each other's action, there are loads of angles that people shoot, and that's before you get outside of the casino and into private clubs or self-dealt games, where you've got to worry about marked cards, whether the dealer is crooked...

And I'm saying this as someone that, all things considered, prefers playing live.

Despite the examples you've cited the online sites, especially the big ones like Stars, Tilt and Party, will give you a lot more protection against cheaters than you'll ever get playing live. Fact.

Dwilius · May 27, 2008

Amen Ozzie.

Makwa · May 27, 2008

Poker and gaming for money brings out the worst in people, that's for sure.

Adventurebound2 · May 27, 2008

Makwa said:
Poker and gaming for money brings out the worst in people, that's for sure.

No Money brings out the worst in people. Be it from gaming or any other source you can imagine.

Makwa · May 27, 2008

adventurebound said:
No Money brings out the worst in people. Be it from gaming or any other source you can imagine.

Ya true... But we can't get past the money in poker, playing for nothing of value means nothing ventured or gained, nothing won or lost. So we are stuck with the chips, cash and markers... Don't mean to diss the game which I love, but without money we would be in an endless round of play money bingo, and how boring is that? Wanna go heads up for 10?

OzExorcist · May 27, 2008

Makwa said:
Ya true... But we can't get past the money in poker, playing for nothing of value means nothing ventured or gained, nothing won or lost. So we are stuck with the chips, cash and markers... Don't mean to diss the game which I love, but without money we would be in an endless round of play money bingo, and how boring is that? Wanna go heads up for 10?

LOL - tell that to some of the people I deal free bar games too...

zachvac · May 27, 2008

quads said:
With all that’s been taking place lately with online poker, it amazes me that so many people act surprised, or still believe playing online is safe and the same as live.

1) High stakes cheaters on Absolute. (Seeing other players cards)
2) Bodog reimbursing players from BOT infestation.
3) Poker Stars freezing winners purse from multi-accounting in WCOOP 5 million.

This is only what the sites were forced to contend with. Imagine what was swept under the carpet over the years trying to protect the integrity of online poker.

The biggest threat of course without having an insider at a site, is the pro. collusion teams. I personally know a poker player from a local live club, who was part of a team that was nailed at Poker Stars. Their accounts were seized and all the players were banned. Total seized was over $7,000.00 dollars from 5 players. Not one word was printed about this incident, or what they did with the money.

With all the software support available today, most online players that rely on it, couldn’t and don’t have a chance playing live. Half of them couldn’t tell you pot or hand odds without it.

Online poker can not guarantee a fair game one way or another. Not that cheating doesn’t take place live, but a 99% better chance of it not happening.

You can make money online, but you better invest in every edge you could buy, and learn where and what is safest to play. And even after doing that if you still have any money left to risk, there are still no guarantees.

Having an experienced great game is what it was all meant to be. Online poker is going backwards.

I'm not going to argue with you, we've been over this before and neither of us is convincing the other one, but imo the majority of this is dead wrong. Oz makes a great point about the integrity of live games (we've had multiple instances of cheating and this is just a home game among mostly friends).

And it's nice to know that on stars the only collusion evidence you have is someone who got busted. Most collusion is heavily noticable, and from what I know Stars has an automatic analyzer that can see these things. When several players play extremely loose, when a bad hand in position min-raises just to build the pot for a player with a monster, when these really loose players put the chips exactly where they want them every time, it's noticeable. And the less they do this stuff, the smaller their edge is.

In terms of software, no good online player (winning online player) RELIES on it. Instead they rely on their ability and use the software as an ADDITION. Almost no good experienced online winning player uses odds calculators. Instead they can do these in their head in a tiny increment of time (most users of this software multitable). Of course they can use the software to charactarize a player, but most online winning players I would say are better at odds calculations, reading abilities, and general poker skill than the average poker player. I'd take a solid 200nl winner who multi-tables vs. a solid live 1000nl winner in a single table cash game no doubt. The online games are tougher, these players have mastered the basic concepts to the point where they are next to basic instinct. And when they're not playing 20 hands/minute they'll have time during folded hands to pick up reads that would be picked up from the software. The ONLY place I would expect to see an edge for the live player is in the manner in which they sit at the table and tells. But even the pro (live) players will tell you that despite what you see on TV, the best reads they get in live play is from betting patterns and not from an eyebrow flinch. And in that category the online winner would eat the live winner for lunch, picking up betting tendencies and exploiting the hell out of them.

If you don't like online poker that's fine, don't play it, but the myths that online players use software as a crutch and that more old-school live players would destroy the young internet players is just a fantasy. Hell look at the live pros that play online. I know for a fact that Gus Hanson and Allen Cunningham do frequently and then you have players like Barry Greenstein, Daniel Negreanu, Phil Ivey, and although I hate to use him, he is a solid player, Phil Hellmuth, who all play at least some (I've seen them all play online aside from Hellmuth). Then you have someone like Brian Townsend who's a total unknown in the live poker world and comes in and holds his own on high stakes poker with some of the best live pros around. Didn't seem to bother him that he didn't have all his software.

But hey, if it makes you feel better about yourself, go ahead and believe that live players are superior. But I'm not going to let you say this with no opposition where other players will read it. I'll let you have the last word because I have no use in arguing here, but for the record I think you're absolutely dead wrong, and hopefully anyone reading this understands why.

S93 · May 27, 2008

I dont belive online poker is rigged but if you think it is why do you play?
It shocks me that people whould not quit playing if the honestly think there beeing cheated.
Any way i dont feel like geting in to this argument again,if u whant my opinion search for the last rigged thread.............................

zachvac said:
I'm not going to argue with you, we've been over this before and neither of us is convincing the other one, but imo the majority of this is dead wrong. Oz makes a great point about the integrity of live games (we've had multiple instances of cheating and this is just a home game among mostly friends).

And it's nice to know that on stars the only collusion evidence you have is someone who got busted. Most collusion is heavily noticable, and from what I know Stars has an automatic analyzer that can see these things. When several players play extremely loose, when a bad hand in position min-raises just to build the pot for a player with a monster, when these really loose players put the chips exactly where they want them every time, it's noticeable. And the less they do this stuff, the smaller their edge is.

In terms of software, no good online player (winning online player) RELIES on it. Instead they rely on their ability and use the software as an ADDITION. Almost no good experienced online winning player uses odds calculators. Instead they can do these in their head in a tiny increment of time (most users of this software multitable). Of course they can use the software to charactarize a player, but most online winning players I would say are better at odds calculations, reading abilities, and general poker skill than the average poker player. I'd take a solid 200nl winner who multi-tables vs. a solid live 1000nl winner in a single table cash game no doubt. The online games are tougher, these players have mastered the basic concepts to the point where they are next to basic instinct. And when they're not playing 20 hands/minute they'll have time during folded hands to pick up reads that would be picked up from the software. The ONLY place I would expect to see an edge for the live player is in the manner in which they sit at the table and tells. But even the pro (live) players will tell you that despite what you see on TV, the best reads they get in live play is from betting patterns and not from an eyebrow flinch. And in that category the online winner would eat the live winner for lunch, picking up betting tendencies and exploiting the hell out of them.

If you don't like online poker that's fine, don't play it, but the myths that online players use software as a crutch and that more old-school live players would destroy the young internet players is just a fantasy. Hell look at the live pros that play online. I know for a fact that Gus Hanson and Allen Cunningham do frequently and then you have players like Barry Greenstein, Daniel Negreanu, Phil Ivey, and although I hate to use him, he is a solid player, Phil Hellmuth, who all play at least some (I've seen them all play online aside from Hellmuth). Then you have someone like Brian Townsend who's a total unknown in the live poker world and comes in and holds his own on high stakes poker with some of the best live pros around. Didn't seem to bother him that he didn't have all his software.

But hey, if it makes you feel better about yourself, go ahead and believe that live players are superior. But I'm not going to let you say this with no opposition where other players will read it. I'll let you have the last word because I have no use in arguing here, but for the record I think you're absolutely dead wrong, and hopefully anyone reading this understands why.

Zachvac and not rigged 1
Quads and rigged 0

MrMuckets · May 28, 2008

quads said:
Collusion teams much more serious then most want to admit. Also runs rampart throughout college dorms.
There are big member teams, that mix it up so well, will never get nailed. These teams are smart enough not to concentrate on big stakes, considering the lack of action up there.

This is why i always look at where they are from on pokerstars. If i find a table with say 3 or 4 guys from Stockholm i don't play there.

Online "RIGGED AND CHEATERS"

quads

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thielcats

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KMC1828

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nevadanick

Back to work ... zzzzz

quads

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quads

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wsorbust

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wsorbust

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quads

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Makwa

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OzExorcist

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