Is online poker rigged??? An investigation!

#**106** 27-03-2007, 11:15 PM

Im not saying that it IS rigged... Im just saying that there is one OBVIOUS way to show that it isn't .. why do poker sites refuse to do this and allow TOP TO BOTTOM access to their programming by independent third parties? Instead, they have people like you focused on the random number generator which plays a minor role in the whole process.

Believing that the programs are legit based on a random number generator when they refuse to let anyone see the guts of the programs ... thats like buying a used car after being allowed to check the tire pressure, but not being allowed to look under the hood.

If that were the case, nobody would want to hear the used car salesman say "Why would I want to sell you a defective car?" and "I have nothing to gain" and all the other garbage excuses that people spit out.

Answer simple. Squelch all the speculation. REVEAL.

#**107** 27-03-2007, 11:59 PM

Hey I found where you copied and pasted that from (unless it's in multiple places).

blog.brettkelly.org » Why Poker Sites Have No Reason to Cheat

Reply from a guy named Steve, June 2006, about half way down.

No harm in copying stuff but at least give credit.

#**108** 28-03-2007, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Weevel

Now, how about a rational and reasoned counter-opinion from the other side instead of the usual stupid comments?

how about, for the 5496738906734986345th time, you provide proof it is? the onus is on you as the accuser to provide evidence, I can't walk into a police station and say "HAY GUYZ I HAVE A REALLY FUNNY FEELING THIS GUY IS A MURDERER BUT ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP LOLE"

this topic is so very retarded.

#**109** 28-03-2007, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Weevel

Now, how about a rational and reasoned counter-opinion from the other side instead of the usual stupid comments?

I've got a database of every hand I've played and so have thousands of other people.

If it was rigged it would be statistically demonstrable.

Instead all proper statistical analysis (ie a decent sample size and proper stat methodolgy) show card distribution being where it should be.

Google for statistical evidence and you will find plenty of people proving it's not rigged and none that that it is rigged.

One more time. It would be provable if it was rigged because the evidence is easily captured and no-one has proved it.

#**110** 28-03-2007, 12:35 AM

no need to give credit.. that was my original post.... thanks for the spot!

sorry I didnt edit out the reference to the person I was responding to on the other board .. but why recreate the wheel.

#**111** 28-03-2007, 12:39 AM

Unfortunaly, Pokertracker data wouldnt prove anything because your results depend on how you play the hands... My pokertracker stats are in line with what they should be .. but, for example.. what happens if you folded AA preflop every time ... your pokertrackerstats would show that you win 0% with AA ... then you would conclude rigging cuz AA never wins? Of course not.

#**112** 28-03-2007, 12:45 AM

Not talking about win/loss, I'm talking about card distribution.

In order to rig it then the random number generator must surely be overidden to provide the necessary card for the "rig". This would alter the normal distribution and would be easily provable.

Did you post that anywhere else or just in those two places by the way Steve?

#**113** 28-03-2007, 12:56 AM

Action on a site could be enhanced without any changes to the card distribution that you would seen in terms of the hands you got as analyzed on Poker Tracker

But my point is that the arguements against "riging" are just so hokey, and as i showed, all are easily shot down .. lets say you were being suspected of a murder which was comitted in NY. But at the time, you were in Paris.

Would your defense be something like "oh, why would I do that?" or "I have nothing to gain by doing it" etc etc" Of course not. You would simply produce witnesses who saw you in Paris. Simple.

The sites have the chance to produce the equivalent of witnesses who saw you in Paris 2 hours before and 2 hours after. Whats all the B.S. and all the avoiding of independent review of their software?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irexes

Not talking about win/loss, I'm talking about card distribution.

In order to rig it then the random number generator must surely be overidden to provide the necessary card for the "rig". This would alter the normal distribution and would be easily provable.

Did you post that anywhere else or just in those two places by the way Steve?

#**114** 28-03-2007, 1:15 AM

LOL, thanks rex for that link, damn everyone there is totally convinced its rigged I can't stop LMAO

#**115** 28-03-2007, 1:25 AM

OK, good post there phlegm, convinced me.....

Anyone wanna get a game going at FT?

#**116** 28-03-2007, 3:29 AM

Bigger online sites are NOT cheating. Players are the cheaters. Poker sites are spending millions trying to detect cheaters.

#**117** 28-03-2007, 3:45 AM

frankly, I dont remember .. this topic isnt as live as it was a year ago ... but if you want the original Ill be glad to give it to you ..lol.. this is actually an excerpt ...lol

Im not an expert, but the only things you could really discern on pokertracker would relate to the delivery of starting hands.. there no way Poker Tracker would be able to pick out anything in the card delivery elswhere... but I guess thats for the programmers to know

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlegm Wad

Action on a site could be enhanced without any changes to the card distribution that you would seen in terms of the hands you got as analyzed on Poker Tracker

But my point is that the arguements against "riging" are just so hokey, and as i showed, all are easily shot down .. lets say you were being suspected of a murder which was comitted in NY. But at the time, you were in Paris.

Would your defense be something like "oh, why would I do that?" or "I have nothing to gain by doing it" etc etc" Of course not. You would simply produce witnesses who saw you in Paris. Simple.

The sites have the chance to produce the equivalent of witnesses who saw you in Paris 2 hours before and 2 hours after. Whats all the B.S. and all the avoiding of independent review of their software?

#**118** 28-03-2007, 9:51 PM

i absolutely think online poker is rigged

#**119** 28-03-2007, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmybeck

i absolutely think online poker is rigged

Ah, well that settles that, then.

#**120** 28-03-2007, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F Paulsson

Ah, well that settles that, then.

You just made me spit the food out of my mouth with laughter

#**121** 28-03-2007, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlegm Wad

frankly, I dont remember .. this topic isnt as live as it was a year ago ... but if you want the original Ill be glad to give it to you ..lol.. this is actually an excerpt ...lol

Yes please.

Quote:

Im not an expert, but the only things you could really discern on pokertracker would relate to the delivery of starting hands.. there no way Poker Tracker would be able to pick out anything in the card delivery elswhere... but I guess thats for the programmers to know

Poker Tracker stores all the cards dealt in an Access database, the distribution of all cards could be analysed byanyone who had the inclination and could write the queries. I've got the sk177s but not the inclination. Surely someone who thinks it's rigged would have done this.

Quote:

Action on a site could be enhanced without any changes to the card distribution that you would seen in terms of the hands you got as analyzed on Poker Tracker

Given that all cards are recorded in Poker Tracker despite what you've said. How can you possibly rig it without affecting normal card distribution? Surely this paradox is akin to your murderer being in Paris when the murder is in NY?

If the distribution is normal, then it's not rigged, surely?

Or perhaps no-one has checked????

(and in case you start to think that they rig it so that for each individual the distribution is rigged to be even over time, then consider that there are up to 10 people at each hand who then play against up to 10 different others each at their next table, and so on. Rigging normal distribution for everyone on a site is quite simply not feasible.)

#**122** 28-03-2007, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irexes

Yes please.

Well I'm not... so there!

Poker Tracker stores all the cards dealt in an Access database, the distribution of all cards could be analysed byanyone who had the inclination and could write the queries. I've got the sk177s but not the inclination. Surely someone who thinks it's rigged would have done this.

Okay, when you get the inclination, so can go do it

Given that all cards are recorded in Poker Tracker despite what you've said. How can you possibly rig it without affecting normal card distribution? Surely this paradox is akin to your murderer being in Paris when the murder is in NY?

Very easily
If the distribution is normal, then it's not rigged, surely?

Whatever the hell you say bud!

Or perhaps no-one has checked????

Nobody cares

(and in case you start to think that they rig it so that for each individual the distribution is rigged to be even over time, then consider that there are up to 10 people at each hand who then play against up to 10 different others each at their next table, and so on. Rigging normal distribution for everyone on a site is quite simply not feasible.)

If you weren't ignorant and could READ .. you would see that I never said that it was rigged. I said that the arguement against it are feable and that it's a leap of faith.

I GUESS THAT SETTLES THAT, THEN.

#**123** 28-03-2007, 11:45 PM

Ah, the I am rubber you are glue line of debate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlegm Wad
frankly, I dont remember .. this topic isnt as live as it was a year ago ... but if you want the original Ill be glad to give it to you ..lol.. this is actually an excerpt ...lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irexes

Yes please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlegm Wad
Well I'm not... so there!

If you are going to bluff you should at least have some outs.

It's ok to admit you didn't write it.

#**124** 29-03-2007, 2:09 AM

Hey Beriac I just played in three different tournaments and the same thing happened in both of them. The more short stacked I got the worst the cards got finally get a good hand to make a move with go in with the best hand and get sucked out on the river. Everytime it was a large stack that did me in. I have noticed that the larger stacks appear to be favored over the short stacks. What is your thoughts on this?

#**125** 29-03-2007, 6:03 AM

Ive have countless arguments, threads, posts on this topic, it will never ever end. I wont contribute anything because i think its a waste of time, people belive what they want to believe, nothing me or anyone says will convince each other otherwise and vice versa. Bottom line is, if you dont trust or are not comfortable playing online poker, dont play, period.

#**126** 30-03-2007, 12:15 AM

I GUESS THAT SETTLES THAT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devilpoker78

Ive have countless arguments, threads, posts on this topic, it will never ever end. I wont contribute anything because i think its a waste of time, people belive what they want to believe, nothing me or anyone says will convince each other otherwise and vice versa. Bottom line is, if you dont trust or are not comfortable playing online poker, dont play, period.

#**127** 30-03-2007, 12:16 AM

could be rigged... more likely coincidence

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madrussian3

Hey Beriac I just played in three different tournaments and the same thing happened in both of them. The more short stacked I got the worst the cards got finally get a good hand to make a move with go in with the best hand and get sucked out on the river. Everytime it was a large stack that did me in. I have noticed that the larger stacks appear to be favored over the short stacks. What is your thoughts on this?

#**128** 30-03-2007, 12:25 PM

I think one or two sites are rigged in a way to induce an aggressive game
I used to play on a site billhill poker or something like that, it’s a uk site best also a bookies.
I noticed a lot of flops had suited cards, paired or had staright draws.
What I found is that players were desperate to kill hands on the flop because of draws and loose players were prepared to call making bettin and callin excessive which inturn meant people were knocked out quicker which lead to them moving onto another table.
I'm sad but in the space of 200 hands I noticed on the flop
122 flush draws
54 paired boards
24 rag flops
This made me leave the site fortunantley for me I was up but found my play did not suit these kind of flops

#**129** 31-03-2007, 3:28 PM

#**130** 03-04-2007, 6:35 PM

What I know is that, at UltimateBet at least, there is something funny going on.

I have noticed that on UltimateBet that if you go to any limit level there are always at least one "player" on every table. And it does not matter at what time of the day. I noticed that at the seven .50-1.00 tables there was a certain player at all of them and he was also in waiting at 2 more.

At the eight .01-.02 tables there was a "player" at every table. How do you play seven or eight tables at the same time? And how can those players win percentages be over 34% of the hands that they play?

And my own personal statistics are pretty interesting. In just under two years of play I have 23 runs of 100+ hands before I had a win.

At 64.5% of the tables I have played at I have not won any of the first 17 hands dealt.

I have had pocket "AA" beaten seven times in a row.

And, luckily we are not talking about a lot of money so I really do not have an ax to grind. I am retired and was doing this when I did not able to play live.

I can not prove that the site is rigged but I know that when the little money that I have on deposit is gone you could not get me to re-load for anything. It just does not seem to give all players an even shot at the tables.

And that crap about someone who is all ready rich want to cheat, history proves that over and over again that given the chance they will.

#**131** 20-04-2007, 12:32 AM

some say its rigged some say its not personally i dont think it is i never seen one reason that it could be

#**132** 20-04-2007, 12:33 AM

honestly i dont think its rigged u get bad beats sometimes but no reason to say its rigged

#**133** 20-04-2007, 1:29 AM

This trhead pops up yet again!!!!!

Can't you folk figure this out in secret session, then let us know!!!!!

#**134** 20-04-2007, 1:46 AM

If you want to see a pro play 7-8 tables at once...watch Bertrand Grospellier (Elky) play on pokerstars...I've seen him play up to 11 at once, right now he has 5 SNG's and 2 tournies on the go.
I can manage 4 at a time, after that I'd have to set my drink down...hehe

Cheers

#**135** 20-04-2007, 1:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flironman

How do you play seven or eight tables at the same time? And how can those players win percentages be over 34% of the hands that they play?

rofl

#**136** 20-04-2007, 2:09 AM

The only way it might be rigged would not affect any player per se. Anyone with access to the database and stats for the gazillion hands played would have access to one of the most valuable databases in the world. That person could run zillions of 'what if's' that you or I can't dream of.

For instance, 'What is the average hand of the first raiser'. The database can answer that, whereas since so many first raisers MIGHT be bluffing, and the field folds, we can not know.

Cross referencing players experience at a site might give an even more disturbing stat, what does player x tend to start with.

If anything were to be proposed regarding online poker it would have to be that any employee working with the computers and having access to that database be absolutely banned from ever playing poker!, Ever, anywhere, under any circumstances.

You with poker tracker will sort of have to acknowledge this possibility. Imagine having the rescources to examine every online hand ever played at such and such a site. And manipulate that info till it tells you something.

It called data mining, happens everyday, in every field.

I believe the sites are aware of this possibility, and hope they understand the implications. I also think they do their damnedest to prevent their databases from being used like this.

That said, I still know that the game I play, can play, won't suffer much more than it already does.

#**137** 20-04-2007, 2:11 AM

onlinepoker is not rigged omg why is this thread stillopen

PokerStars not telling mods what to do but jees this thred reopens every day in another guise

#**138** 20-04-2007, 2:17 AM

No poker is not rigged. The reason I think this is because they have to many members and why would they want to lose that

#**139** 20-04-2007, 2:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by combuboom

Actually... does Dream Poker count as a major site? I know it's not one of the top dogs, but I have no idea how they do financially. I guess they would count as a smaller site, so I guess I actually do have a contention with one.

I don't like to accuse poker sites of being rigged, but I must say the dealing and action at Dream Poker is absolutely the most bizarre that I've ever seen on any poker site. I've played many freerolls there. Okay, yes, I know they are freerolls. This ensures there will be a number of bad beats. But I'm not talking about there being many bad beats. I'm talking about there being a startlingly high PERCENTAGE of bad beats in all-in situations. I've played numerous freerolls at Absolute Poker, PokerStars, and Titan. I have no agenda to target Dream Poker, nor have I been so unlucky at Dream Poker that I have something against the sites. In fact, tons of the bad beats have been in my favor. Most of the ones I've taken note of, though, haven't even involved me. So I think I'm pretty impartial about it.

The rivers at Dream Poker are crazy. They almost always seem to help someone in a big way, notably when a dominated player is all-in. My impartial observations were so striking to me that I refuse to play a game at Dream Poker for real money. The 100k guaranteed they hold every week is a great deal and the field is not that large, but I just can't bring myself to spend my own money there because I don't trust it at all.

I used to play nothing but freerolls, for probably about half a year or a year, when I was 17 years old. There are always loads of bad beats because there's so many opportunities, but if you pay attention to both sides of it, you'll see that the dominating hand wins about as much as it is supposed to. Dream Poker is the only site where I've been constantly left with my mouth hanging open at consecutive bad beats I've seen OTHER PEOPLE take. If you're interested enough, check it out for yourself. It never fails to fascinate me. These have just been my experiences, but it's been so incredibly consistent that I can't imagine it being just a coincidence.

Dream Poker is Part of the Poker Time Network which in turn teamed up with The gaming club network which is a reputable network based in Europe. The Gaming Club has been around for a long time and I would vouch for then anytime.


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