Is online poker rigged??? An investigation!

#**491** 13-02-2008, 11:19 PM

oh god this is the thread that will not die

edit: lol at above post

#**492** 13-02-2008, 11:38 PM

lol............so tell me the funny bits. The funny thing is the players who kid themselves that it's all honest and above board. Go check your profitability and see if it's still funny.

#**493** 14-02-2008, 4:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan1888

I know a programmer who helped create the Poker Stars shuffle.Poker Forums - Reply to Topic
He even told me of a time the program hit a glitch and all tournies for the day had to be shut down while they figured out what happened with the program.In dealing its usual drama hands to keep table action high in a tourney,the program miscalculated and threw a 5th ace.
http:/wtfpokerstars.ytmnd.com.

I find it interesting that they trust such a HUGE secret to what I assume is an independent programmer who they discarded. You'd think they'd keep that sort of secret in-house with their on-staff senior programmers.
And the two companies *did* have access to the source code, so they could see such programming.

It's also interesting that to back up the story he cited a known hoax. If you look closely, the center Ace wasn't even pasted in correctly. It's too high. (Not to mention that Big Devin wasn't even in that tournament.)

Edit: Oops. I didn't notice how old that post was.

#**494** 22-02-2008, 2:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ex-player

lol............so tell me the funny bits. The funny thing is the players who kid themselves that it's all honest and above board. Go check your profitability and see if it's still funny.

None so deaf as those who will not hear. What you have to remember is that these blissful ignorants are INTERNET PLAYERS, they KNOW NO BETTER the poor loves.

They think it's normal!! LOL.

#**495** 25-02-2008, 5:36 PM

if you play at serious and popular sites like pokerstars or full tilt, then you can be sure that there is no rigging.

i sometimes have the feeling too when i get beat by a worse hand but you must live with it because thats poker baby^^

#**496** 25-02-2008, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzo

None so deaf as those who will not hear.

You're right about that bit - and that's why there are still conspiracy theorists going on about JFK, Princess Diana, Marilyn Monroe, poker being rigged, Elvis still being alive, etc. etc. etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzo

What you have to remember is that these blissful ignorants are INTERNET PLAYERS, they KNOW NO BETTER the poor loves.

What you should remember is that if there is genuinely something going on somewhere that shouldn't be, the evidence (and I mean real evidence, not some anecdotal bad beat sob story) is most likely to turn up on the internet first.

#**497** 25-02-2008, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ex-player

lol............so tell me the funny bits. The funny thing is the players who kid themselves that it's all honest and above board. Go check your profitability and see if it's still funny.

lol donk.

ya rly you played for that long, lies.

+++++ screen name ill go look up ur OPR

#**498** 25-02-2008, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beriac

Intro

So I've seen post after post after post either directly accusing or indirectly insinuating that online poker is rigged. Though the complaints more often than not come from folks who are frustrated from bad beats, the most common theory is that the poker sites so this to encourage action and thus increase the rake at their tables. I think if we polled the regulars here at Cardschat, I bet the vote would slant in favour of "not rigged". Still, despite the fact that accusations of rigging really don't make a ton of sense coming from current players (goodness, why continue to play?), I thought it would be worth investigating.

So here goes nothing...

Logic and reason

This is my own opinion: rigging a poker site would be like a professional athlete stealing sporting goods from his or her team -- the risk of losing something good would dramatically outweight the gains from cheating. I'm trained in game theory, and I can tell you that experts in the field would suggest that this is ludicrous (hip hop afficionados might suggest that it is instead ludacris).

Thus, I personally believe that it is unlikely that major sites are in any way rigged. I know if I were running one, and I do have a business background, there is no way I would risk the mint that online poker sites make in rake just to add a few extra bucks.

Research

For the sake of argument, I decided to use Poker Stars as my research subject, though I would apply my conclusions to Party, Full Tilt, and any of the other large, reputable sites. As for flybynightpoker.com and stealingyourmoneypoker.com, I speak not for those.

So, I did something incredibly complex and comprehensive: I went to pokerstars.com and looked around. Clicking on "integrity", I found their policy on shuffling basically immediately.

According to Poker Stars, there are many ways to shuffle a deck of cards. How many? Well, picture a 5 followed by 67 zeroes, that's how many. So what Poker Stars has to do is select one of those 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ways to shuffle a deck and start dealing the cards.

How do they choose it? Believe it or not, they use us players to generate their random numbers, using "user input, including summary of mouse movements and events timing, collected from client software". In the event that there are problems with this as a RNG (random number generator), they have a backup: "true hardware random number generator developed by Intel, which uses thermal noise as an entropy source". They go on and on describing how they obtain and apply their RNG, but these details are mostly beyond me.

So why should we believe Poker Stars? They could say anything on their website right? Well, their RNG is certified by 2 independent organizations: Cigital and BMM International. I decided to look into these organizations.

Cigital: An independent software risk management organization working with such companies as Qualcomm, Visa International, Texas Instruments, AOL, MasterCard, General Electric, Motorola, Pfizer Health Solutions, and Ericsson. Why would they put all that business on the line to lie for Poker Stars?

BMM International: A global organization that provides independent computer systems assurance and compliance certification testing services, the Australia-based company is a client of the Australian government among other organizations.

My question: Why would Poker Stars lie about its 2-tiered RNG when it is immensely profitable without it, and why would 2 independent organizations risk their reputations to vouch for it?

Conclusions

To me, if this is not enough evidence that Poker Stars (and in all likelihood, the major poker sites) is un-rigged and up-and-up, then nothing is. Personally, I believe it. That's why I bother risking my money there, and at Party Poker, and any of the reputable poker sites. If I thought for a second that they might be rigged, I'd take my cash out in a flash -- and so should you.

So the next time you're thinking you've taken 1 too many bad beats, or that you seem to win more in the morning, or after you've made a deposit, or during full moons, or what have you, and you think about posting that online poker is rigged, please ask yourself 3 questions:

1 - Isn't it possible that it seems rigged to me, because when something happens in my favour or my best-hand-going-in holds up, I don't notice it as much as when I take a huge bad beat?
2 - Anyway, isn't it true that even AA vs. 72o is still just a 8:1 favourite (according to this), and even here you should expect to lose once every 9 times, and no hole cards are 100% to win.
3 - Why would a poker site that is "raking it in", so to speak, bother to risk all its profits and cheat just to generate a little more action?

If you answer "no" to all of these questions, then I have gathered some additional links that you may find helpful: here, here, and here.

Epilogue

If anyone wishes to discuss this further, I would be happy to in a constructive way. I have just found that people are all too ready to blame their woes on multi-billion dollar companies rigging their operations to squeeze a few extra cents out of us. Personally, when I lose a bunch of cash on a bad beat, it's more often than not my own damn fault.

Please feel free to direct future queries about RNGs here, and I will add to it as needed.

I'm not sure its rigged but i do think some people (me included)get the raw end of the deal.(ie if i try to play like a donk which i;ve tried to do i can never win ,but if others donk against me 95 times out of a 100 they will beat me(JOKERSTARS is the worse for me,But Full
"crap"Tilt is quickly catching up)

#**499** 25-02-2008, 11:45 PM

I never thought it of that form

#**500** 25-02-2008, 11:50 PM

I also never thought it of that form.

Like why the shit even bother posting that

#**501** 26-02-2008, 12:02 AM

and welcome...

#**502** 26-02-2008, 3:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoCluckingFue

What you should remember is that if there is genuinely something going on somewhere that shouldn't be, the evidence (and I mean real evidence, not some anecdotal bad beat sob story) is most likely to turn up on the internet first.

The whole sorry thing is set up for action and this is UNPROVABLE.

#**503** 26-02-2008, 3:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gondorf

The whole sorry thing is set up for action and this is UNPROVABLE.

None so deaf as those who will not hear.

#**504** 26-02-2008, 3:36 AM

Loud and clear pal.
When someone's pissing on my boots, they will not convince me it's raining.

#**505** 27-02-2008, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monoxide

lol donk.

ya rly you played for that long, lies.

+++++ screen name ill go look up ur OPR

No, what I wrote was all true. I didn't make wildconspiracy claims, I simply gave MY story and MY point of view. I've played under a number of screen names.......none of which I'll be giving out on here. I posted in good faith, if abuse is the best you can come up with you're the donk. Your response is also typical of a loser who's in denial. Only 1-2% of players show a long term profit.......YOU CAN'T ALL BE WINNING !!!!!

#**506** 28-02-2008, 12:51 AM

because of my complete mistrust in computer gambling i usually only stick to the freerolls that could possibly earn me some spending money on the sights. If i do load any money from a credit card its usually only 20 to 50 dollars

#**507** 28-02-2008, 4:48 AM

Hmm if rigged poker is like rigged elections...just stay away from those places and your fine. Stick to the popular sites and you should be sweet.

you should probally stay away from random new comer sites like www.wescrewupoker.com though

#**508** 06-03-2008, 1:57 AM

I love this topic, it seems never ending so I thought I might add my two cents worth. Firstly the notion that because poker sites are making "millions" they would not jeopardize this for a little extra, well clearly if we are talking millions then a little would not be a little but rather a lot, and in all likelihood to much to be ignored by any CEO worth his salt. The premise also fails on the basis that it totally ignores the human condition factor, just when is enough enough, never. Like the recent businessman for whom twenty one million P/A was not enough so he tried to stiff the ATO ( read IRS ) for a million or two and got nabbed, risking loss of reputation, possible jail time and for what "a little extra". So in summation what are these sites actually risking even if and when the are caught out ? The short answer is probably nothing, closing them down ? it is extremely doubtful that anyone has that ability, send them to jail ? an even more remote possibility, so apart from being pilloried by bloggers nada. Insofar as to people continuing to play at a site or game they believe to be suspect, let me just say this, people contribute billions yes billions into poker machines year in year out and they know they are fixed, they also play horses the racing kind and contribute more billions and we all know how straight that is. Regards BF TBC

#**509** 06-03-2008, 3:03 PM

Do we really want to know.yes aa against 7 2 off suit is 8 to 1 to win so my question to everyone is who is going to play any hand when they are atleast an eight to 1 dog preflop?Idiots or master manipulators.If mouse movement and other such players action have an effect on the (random generator)then would their maybe just ever so slightly be specific things you can do to actually make that call as an 8 to 1 dog with your 7 2 off suit.We all know that none of us are calling anyone who makes a raise in live play at home or wherever..Well I guess the wherever would be the internet..Blinking name,speed of the chips coming out when you make your bet,the 40 second delay player who seems to only call with crap and win...Financially speaking how many of us go out and gamble..All of us,but how many of us go out and gamble when you know your 4 5 6 7 or 8 to 1 underdog.Not many of us..So I ask the question once again if a man created it that a man can manipulate it..True or false?So next time you get burned by that ridicoulous call ask yourself this(3 hours into the tourney you have only played Quality hands how does someone make that call against you when you push your stack knowing your style and the fact that they have also been playing for 3 hours with that dreaded 9 7 off suit or the k 6 off suit.)If I only knew..

#**510** 06-03-2008, 3:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gondorf

The whole sorry thing is set up for action and this is UNPROVABLE.

Explain to me how you can know something that is unprovable. You're clearly not basing this statement (that it's set up for action) on any kind of evidence, so it must be something else. So what is it? What are you basing it on?

#**511** 06-03-2008, 5:39 PM

I know for a fact that the cards being dealt are not being shuffle in the same way all over. Keeping track of 20,000 hands at site I average 13% to 16% in wins keeping track of every thousand. Site did a make over and now 20,000 hands later I average 9%-13%.

Numbers look like this before 16, 14, 15, 15, 13, 16, 14, 13, 15, 14, 16, 16
now 13%, 12, 12, 10, 12, 12, 14, 12, 11, 9, 13, 12, 12, 9, 12, 9, 11%

clearly something changed but had no effect on winnings

#**512** 06-03-2008, 5:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no1here

I know for a fact that the cards being dealt are not being shuffle in the same way all over. Keeping track of 20,000 hands at site I average 13% to 16% in wins keeping track of every thousand. Site did a make over and now 20,000 hands later I average 9%-13%.

Numbers look like this before 16, 14, 15, 15, 13, 16, 14, 13, 15, 14, 16, 16
now 13%, 12, 12, 10, 12, 12, 14, 12, 11, 9, 13, 12, 12, 9, 12, 9, 11%

clearly something changed but had no effect on winnings

what

#**513** 06-03-2008, 5:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorkus Malorkus

what

i was saying the same thing
hopefully he will elaborate

#**514** 06-03-2008, 6:01 PM

All this did was convince me that live poker is rigged for action cards.

Since the same beats and sukouts happen on all the live tables I've ever played since '69 - my only 'logical' conclusion is that live table poker is RIGGED !!!

NOW what do I do.... ???

...

#**515** 06-03-2008, 7:11 PM

Live Poker is Rigged » Online Poker Blog

#**516** 06-03-2008, 9:35 PM

It seems that the world of online cheating is the biggest topic going right now, right up there with Donks and bad beats. First let me say that this forum is extreemly interesting as well as entertaining. I am a poker player who enjoys the game and I have enjoyed it since before holdem became the game of choice. I also was around before computers were available to us common people.

I have read (not all) but a large majority of the posts here and my 2 cents worth is this:

I do not think that the 'software' is rigged, it can however be adjusted to allow a percentage of win to loss ratio. Lets face it, these online poker companies are there to make them money not us, and they make it off of raked pots not freerolls.

So the game has to be made to 'LOOK' as if you can make big money playing it, otherwise new players would not deposit.

Another thing for you to consider is that the computer software plays the same as the Video Lottery (poker machines) do. They ARE NOT rigged as some of you feel they are:

Quote: "let me just say this, people contribute billions yes billions into poker machines year in year out and they know they are fixed"

This statement is simply not true, I have serviced the VLTs in NB and can tell you they are honest, They are percentage weighted and thats it, so they may pay lets say $35.00 out of every $100.00 spent.

Also FYI the hands are decided before they even hit the display, the playing of the cards is simply for the players benifit. The computer has to be slowed down or you would simply lose too fast and there would be no feel of chance in it. The same holds true with online poker, the wining hand has already been selected and the seat it is going to already picked. The only chance you have of wining after the computer has picked the winner is to make that seat (or player) fold. So you see it is really all for looks. That is why the heavy betters are usually the winners, they force the real winning hand to fold.

I hope to post more on this at another time, we will see if there are any questions, interest or flame on this posting

Thank you

#**517** 06-03-2008, 9:40 PM

How does a poker room employ win almost 700,000 in less than a week..He cheated..They caught him oh no actually it was all the blogs people were writing about him that finally made him get caught..Sure hundreds of people probably complained about to support (man was it full tilt or pacific poker nope it was absolute poker) but I do remember what the employee told the on line casino why he did..Because know on would believe him so he decided to show them..
Some opponents became suspicious of how a certain player was playing. He seemed to know what the opponents’ hole cards were. The suspicious players provided examples of these hands, which were so outrageous that virtually all serious poker players were convinced that cheating had occurred. One of the players who’d been cheated requested that Absolute Poker provide hand histories from the tournament (which is standard practice for online sites). In this case, Absolute Poker “accidentally” did not send the usual hand histories, but instead sent a file that contained all sorts of private information that the poker site would never release. The file contained every player’s hole cards, observations of the tables, and even the IP addresses of every person playing. (I put “accidentally” in quotes because the mistake seems like too great a coincidence when you learn what followed.) I suspect that someone at Absolute knew about the cheating and how it happened, and was acting as a whistleblower by sending these data. If that is the case, I hope whomever “accidentally” sent the file gets their proper hero’s welcome in the end.

#**518** 06-03-2008, 9:44 PM

There have been a lot of rumours about one of the world’s most successful online players, the Swede Mohammad Kowssarie (The Terrorist, Terror of Sweden, Fast Freddie). They say that he has won his millions with the help of this kind of cheating. They say that Mohammad, with the help of a Russian computer expert, have succeeded to get into the opponents computers. They used a security hole in MSN messenger to get in and get access to the opponent’s cards. The cheating was done at absolute top-level poker against the worlds best poker players. Mohammad won the biggest pot in online poker history against ”bad_ip”, Johnny Lodden, $465.451 with tree aces and a jack kicker. Mohammad plays regularly at Full Tilt against players like Phil Ivey, Mike Matusow, Gus Hansen and Howard Lederer.
The fact is that Mohammad plays in a way that seems to be impossible if you cant see the opponent’s cards and he has won millions of dollars in a short time.

#**519** 06-03-2008, 10:01 PM

i started winning and didint have an RNG. and i figured that they were the ones coming in with it calling with the most ridiculoous hands i have ever seen and winning. but patience is where i started learning that u wait long enough , nothing is rigged

#**520** 06-03-2008, 11:25 PM

Quote:

It seems that the world of online cheating is the biggest topic going right now

Actually I think that most online poker players are bored sheetless with the subject by now!

#**521** 07-03-2008, 6:00 AM

These are bizarre statements:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckshot01

I do not think that the 'software' is rigged, it can however be adjusted to allow a percentage of win to loss ratio.

i.e. you are saying it can be adjusted to be rigged, but you don't think its rigged?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckshot01

I have serviced the VLTs in NB and can tell you they are honest, They are percentage weighted and thats it, so they may pay lets say $35.00 out of every $100.00 spent.

Percentage weighted = rigged.

Weird stuff. Doublethink in action as predicted by Orwell, lol.

#**522** 08-03-2008, 12:33 AM

''Ok so we're setting up an online poker site. We have total control over the hole cards and the board cards. Now we can make this purely random, in which case games will last unspecified and often protracted lenghs of time, the more skilled players will take the vast majority of winnings, new and lesser skilled players will lose their money. The cream will always rise to the top. And we will have a nice little business with a few thousand players.''

OR.........

''We can effect some changes to the programme that will give lesser talented players a much better chance. They will occassionally make the prizemoney in tourneys and be given false hope. In cash games they'll win a bit and lose a lot. Much better than them getting disheartened with constantly losing and therebye retaining them as paying players for much longer. We can even come up with a fairness policy (aka Party), it will be much fairer for everyone when they all get a share of the money. And the added bonus will be a site with many many thousands of hopeful players, all regularly depositing (we make excellent profits from the exchange rates, deposit interest etc.), happy no hopers who are re-encouraged by their 'success' and become hooked. It will also cut out a lot of them nasty cashouts. We can increase our revenue by millions whilst helping the needy.''

''Surely that is better than those nasty good players taking all the money and putting everyone else off playing the game........a much fairer solution all round.''

Of course it's not legit, do you really think the guys who run these site are stupid. And don't bother looking at hand histories etc. They will always appear legitimate. The software 'tweaking' is in the situations created not the actual hands. A balance of expected outcomes, hole cards dealt, frequecy of individual cards dealt etc. will always appear within normal boundaries. Nothing outrageous or traceable is needed.

The sites are much, much smarter than that.......they're pro's.......we're the amateurs.


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