Is online poker rigged??? An investigation!

#**421** 26-09-2007, 8:27 PM

"ontological"

the science of onts.

#**422** 26-09-2007, 8:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliengenius

^^yep. Like all ontological arguments, it's not incumbent on the 'no' side to prove the point.........
............
3. I want to end the debate once and for all, so here is the BIG secret:
POKER ISN'T ABOUT CARDS AT ALL !! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

finally someone let the

out of the bag of

!

- ontological
on·tol·o·gy
–noun 1.the branch of metaphysics that studies the nature of existence or being as such.

existential

ex·is·ten·tial
–adjective 1.pertaining to existence. 2.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of existentialism: an existential hero.
~I think therefore I am~

#**423** 26-09-2007, 8:53 PM

- onts
on·ts
–noun 1.small shrew-like creatures renowned for bitter disposition and fondness for marmite.

#**424** 26-09-2007, 9:02 PM

vegamite sandwich to you lil missy!!

~touche'

~~

#**425** 26-09-2007, 9:05 PM

What does ONTS stand for?
Office of Nonproliferation Technology Support (US DOE) =Department of Energy
OR Homer Simpson = D'OH
OR.....Doe= $

non·pro·lif·er·a·tion
1.the action or practice of curbing or controlling an excessive, rapid spread: nonproliferation of nuclear weapons.
2.failure or refusal to proliferate, as in budding or cell division.
–adjective
3.pertaining to diplomatic agreements limiting the spread of nuclear weapons.

~Scrabble is Rigged~

#**426** 26-09-2007, 9:25 PM

I read the first 8 pages, so if the people claiming poker is rigged are all convinced by now, sorry about this.

1. Pokertracker keeps logs of everything imaginable apart from folded hands (it even has the mucked hands that lose in a showdown). That means that we could look at anything, please to the original conspiracy theorist, talk to your programmer friend and ask where the percentages are off. Is it just that flush draws hit more than they should? Do lower stacks hit more?

I think we've already established that starting hands follow the proper distribution, but what specifically is off in the percentages? I have a database with about 14.5k hands and I'm sure there are people here with several times that. Furthermore, I have worked with sql and depending on what that programmer friend of yours says is rigged about it, just give me a query in English to use and I'll run it on my hands and post the query here so others can as well.

2. High school statistics - exercise: draw a table with 10 rows and 10 columns. Put in pseudorandom numbers (as random as you can be without using a RNG). Now on the back draw an identical table, but use the RNG on the calculator to fill it in with truly random numbers. He looked at the entire class's papers and got all of them right. Want to know how he figured out which was random and which wasn't? The random one was the one with more runs and such. In a truly random table, the odds of a 7 coming after a 7 is 1/10 (we were doing single digits only). In our minds, following a 7 we don't want to put another 7, so the odds are much lower.

Compare that to poker. We don't like to lose pots we're ahead of, we assume they're a lock, because it's hard enough to tell if you have the best hand or not, you figure when you do, you should get paid off. You expect it to happen once in a while, but when it happens multiple times in a short time, you get upset. Compare it to the RNG table example above. In real life if you're a 70-30 favorite, the odds of it happening a second time directly after the first is 30%. In your mind you're thinking, "this just happened, it can't happen again". But that's not true. RNGs have no memory.

So look at #2, ask your programmer friend (whom I doubt exists), and let me know what kind of query you want me to run, just let me know in English what the anomaly is in the data that shouldn't be there. I'm sure we'll prove the rigging is there once and for all.

#**427** 26-09-2007, 9:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

I read the first 8 pages, so if the people claiming poker is rigged are all convinced by now, sorry about this.

1. Pokertracker keeps logs of everything imaginable apart from folded hands (it even has the mucked hands that lose in a showdown). That means that we could look at anything, please to the original conspiracy theorist, talk to your programmer friend and ask where the percentages are off. Is it just that flush draws hit more than they should? Do lower stacks hit more?

I think we've already established that starting hands follow the proper distribution, but what specifically is off in the percentages? I have a database with about 14.5k hands and I'm sure there are people here with several times that. Furthermore, I have worked with sql and depending on what that programmer friend of yours says is rigged about it, just give me a query in English to use and I'll run it on my hands and post the query here so others can as well.

2. High school statistics - exercise: draw a table with 10 rows and 10 columns. Put in pseudorandom numbers (as random as you can be without using a RNG). Now on the back draw an identical table, but use the RNG on the calculator to fill it in with truly random numbers. He looked at the entire class's papers and got all of them right. Want to know how he figured out which was random and which wasn't? The random one was the one with more runs and such. In a truly random table, the odds of a 7 coming after a 7 is 1/10 (we were doing single digits only). In our minds, following a 7 we don't want to put another 7, so the odds are much lower.

Compare that to poker. We don't like to lose pots we're ahead of, we assume they're a lock, because it's hard enough to tell if you have the best hand or not, you figure when you do, you should get paid off. You expect it to happen once in a while, but when it happens multiple times in a short time, you get upset. Compare it to the RNG table example above. In real life if you're a 70-30 favorite, the odds of it happening a second time directly after the first is 30%. In your mind you're thinking, "this just happened, it can't happen again". But that's not true. RNGs have no memory.

So look at #2, ask your programmer friend (whom I doubt exists), and let me know what kind of query you want me to run, just let me know in English what the anomaly is in the data that shouldn't be there. I'm sure we'll prove the rigging is there once and for all.

+rep

#**428** 26-09-2007, 9:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

So look at #2, ask your programmer friend (whom I doubt exists), and let me know what kind of query you want me to run, just let me know in English what the anomaly is in the data that shouldn't be there. I'm sure we'll prove the rigging is there once and for all.

Well now I think we got someone here that is the kinda guy that deserves the ++rep...if you want to undertake such a task by all means if there are players that wish to contribute. Or perhaps The OP Beriac may very well appreciate a PM from you regarding some Data...and come to the table with Conclusive Evidence to say what your findings are..in unbiased and presentable manner!!

I am not Beriac and whether he welcomes a PM about what you are proposing...is between you both...but 'Like' minds tend to compound the solution at a greater extent than a One-man show!!

~You are fresh air that I can breathe again~

#**429** 26-09-2007, 9:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegagus

last ever post if you had read my posts properly it says that i have stopped playing properly online, and expect to lose.

I always expect to lose, but then I realize that I'm a good player. And guess what? I don't lose.

#**430** 26-09-2007, 10:12 PM

Take a pack of cards and open your recent hand history, then just deal cards just like there where in online poker. Leave all cards "live" that would have you beaten. E.G. you have KQs and opponent have ATo, flop. K52. how many times A comes in real situation and how many times in online. It would be amazing different........ No mather what you bet or raise or do.... Ace will come if you making a stupid call.... Stupid calls are rewarded on internet pokersites.... try this at home........

#**431** 26-09-2007, 11:12 PM

You have been lost a BIG pot and next hole cards is AA! Yep. AA. You think thats nice now i can go all in and everybody is thinking that you are steaming. That is excatly what you want. Somebody is calling you 94o and board is 94KJQ. How many times you get AA in live game after you suffered a badbeat and then loose it on 94o. NONE!

#**432** 26-09-2007, 11:18 PM

#**433** 26-09-2007, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gutshotidiot

You have been lost a BIG pot and next hole cards is AA! Yep. AA. You think thats nice now i can go all in and everybody is thinking that you are steaming. That is excatly what you want. Somebody is calling you 94o and board is 94KJQ. How many times you get AA in live game after you suffered a badbeat and then loose it on 94o. NONE!

Happened to me yesterday.

Twice.

#**434** 26-09-2007, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gutshotidiot

Take a pack of cards and open your recent hand history, then just deal cards just like there where in online poker. Leave all cards "live" that would have you beaten. E.G. you have KQs and opponent have ATo, flop. K52. how many times A comes in real situation and how many times in online. It would be amazing different........ No mather what you bet or raise or do.... Ace will come if you making a stupid call.... Stupid calls are rewarded on internet pokersites.... try this at home........

You don't have to do anything in person, that's the beauty of poker. You can CALCULATE how often it SHOULD happen. If online it differs than there is evidence of the site being rigged. I'm telling you that won't happen with a large enough sample size. I'm trying to think of a good query to run to test that, but it's kinda tough. A few questions.

1. Are you saying only when they make the call that's how it happens, or are you saying that a sandwich (the person has a card higher than both of yours and one lower than both, the person with the higher and lower card has a better chance of hitting than they should in online poker? Or is it only when that person makes the call? Or only when there's an all-in and the cards are flipped over. The one problem with some of these queries would be that it has to ignore hands that don't call you, so if you include hands only where there's a showdown, you're missing the hands where they don't hit their high card and fold before the SD. I'll see if I can get the stats for me at least on that situation when it's all in (I've played enough sngs that I think I have a large enough sample of those types of hands). I'm kinda busy tonight (I should actually be working now, but what can I say, talking about poker's better than chem hw) but hopefully in the next few days I'll run the data for me at least just to reassure you that the odds are playing out exactly as they should.

#**435** 27-09-2007, 12:32 AM

YES it was posted before

and NO it wasn't written by someone else, it was written by me... so you obviously have no recall and, therefore, AGAIN you are wrong - therefore everything you say is wrong... you are just Mr. Incorrect Assumer Recaller ... figures you would be so closed minded since you think you know who wrote something when you know NOTHING

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irexes

Phlegm wad has posted this exact same lengthy post before.

And I think it was written by someone else if I recall.

Rigged.

#**436** 27-09-2007, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeeagles

I just realized I'm in the wrong trade, dammit. Another 2/3 years down the road and definitely shrinks will be among the richest people in the world with the level of insanity, schizophrenic "plot against me" persecution ideas and paranoid thoughts that online poker is generating. In a few more months people will hear whispers coming from their pc: hey folks, its rigged, the voice said. They will swear they heard it.

Hold it, it just hit me, its all clear now; it must be those huge pharmaceutical companies that are rigging online poker, lured by the huge profits they will make selling pills for the mental instability cases it will create. Dam, they're at it again, its the corporate world at its finest, first they mesmerize us with a new product and then they get into our pockets. The shrinks must be funding the freerolls, to accelerate the inevitable process. That's it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its all clear now, lets give it up boys and find something else to do, before we all fall victims of this scheme designed by shrinks and pharmaceutical companies.

Joeeagles This one is getting Printed and Framed in GOLD beside my PC for all the times I Play Poker online and hear voices...
Ahhh the calming soothing voice of reason...telling me that my A-7 is good ALL-IN ..(cuz it is sooooOOTTeddddddd!!!)

Man I cannot stop laughing I have to read this entire Thread when I am depressed because My cycle of mania/depression will have recirculated at such an accelerated rate that I will be totally sane due to confusion!!!

HAHAHA Thanks Ya ALL!!! Gold!! True 99.9% Gold - I have enough writing material for an EPIC!!!

#**437** 27-09-2007, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlegm Wad

YES it was posted before

and NO it wasn't written by someone else, it was written by me... so you obviously have no recall and, therefore, AGAIN you are wrong - therefore everything you say is wrong... you are just Mr. Incorrect Assumer Recaller ... figures you would be so closed minded since you think you know who wrote something when you know NOTHING

Wow. you've made 28 posts and have already run out of anything original to say, so are repeating yourself.

And writing that nonsense is nothing to be proud of.

And your "logic" is anything but.

#**438** 27-09-2007, 12:57 AM

I must say to all the Legit Post Regulars here, is it me or all the naysayers, that are siding pro-'rigged' are new (under 30) posts...see my post about 'Room Raid'.....Hmmmm???
Just me and my neurosis of Humor and my sides splitting and eyes watering cuz I can't stop laughing.. This is the best free humor laugh I have had in Months!!!

#**439** 27-09-2007, 1:42 AM

I have been playing poker live and online now for over 5 years...I emailed pokerstars and asked them to let me know how many hands I have played since I have been a member....it was well over 750,000 hands....that doesn't include the 2 years I played at Paradise before switching to Stars....and that doesn't include all the live play when I lived in L.A. and Vegas...all told I think it's safe to say that I have seen well over 1.2 million hands of poker (conservative estimate)

with that said I can say without question or a shadow of a doubt that online poker is absolutely 100% SKEWED....It is not even close to real poker. This is not a live shuffle and there are FAR more 'action' hands dealt...and quite frankly I have never seen even close to the amount of ridiculous beats live as I have online...it's a joke really....which is one of the reasons why I have tailored a hyper aggressive style to exclude the 'software' from being a real factor....I see maybe 15% of flops in any given tourney and rely on pre flop accumulation without a showdown as opposed to putting my fate in the hands of Poker Stars ****ed up RNG's

This is an opinion from a fairly seasoned live and online player...and I will stop one step short of saying that 'live poker is rigged' but I will go on record and say that something doesn't smell right

this was just now as I was writing this post btw >>

PokerStars Game #12289036468: Tournament #61825930, $25.00+$2.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2007/09/26 - 20:36:38 (ET)
Table '61825930 27' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: gossy (2060 in chips)
Seat 2: *RUSS100* (3845 in chips)
Seat 3: Dinhjo (5610 in chips)
Seat 4: flopordrop (5385 in chips)
Seat 5: animos1 (6525 in chips)
Seat 6: EQ_Bum (3675 in chips)
Seat 7: Raw Kat (5045 in chips)
Seat 8: jennok1 (3630 in chips)
Seat 9: ripptyde (3350 in chips)
flopordrop: posts small blind 25
animos1: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ripptyde [Qc Qh]
EQ_Bum: folds
Raw Kat: folds
jennok1: calls 50
ripptyde: raises 200 to 250
gossy: raises 1810 to 2060 and is all-in
*RUSS100*: raises 1785 to 3845 and is all-in
Dinhjo: folds
flopordrop: folds
animos1: folds
jennok1: folds
ripptyde: calls 3100 and is all-in
gossy said, "ull hit...watch!!"
*** FLOP *** [Ac 5d Tc]
gossy said, "see"
*** TURN *** [Ac 5d Tc] 2♦
*** RIVER *** [Ac 5d Tc 2d] J♠
gossy said, "bull****"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ripptyde: shows [Qc Qh] (a pair of Queens)
*RUSS100*: shows [Th Td] (three of a kind, Tens)
*RUSS100* collected 2580 from side pot
gossy: shows [Qd Qs] (a pair of Queens)
*RUSS100* collected 6305 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8885 Main pot 6305. Side pot 2580. | Rake 0
Board [Ac 5d Tc 2d Js]
Seat 1: gossy showed [Qd Qs] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 2: *RUSS100* showed [Th Td] and won (8885) with three of a kind, Tens
Seat 3: Dinhjo (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: flopordrop (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: animos1 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: EQ_Bum folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Raw Kat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: jennok1 folded before Flop
Seat 9: ripptyde showed [Qc Qh] and lost with a pair of Queens

#**440** 27-09-2007, 1:49 AM

Seems to me that folks who post in these "Online Poker is Rigged" threads fall into 3 categories

1) I just know its rigged

2) bring me some proof and then will will talk but in the meantime GO AWAY

3) so what... does it matter? (my category)

Truth is threads like this have nothing to do with poker being rigged. It is all about the fact that people like to bitch about anything and everything they do. People are going to believe it is rigged no mater what. Laws, oversight, regulations. It don't matter. People will still complain.

I have played online games for years. RPG's and such. Some pay to play, some free and the forums for these games are full of complaints of cheating, fixing, favoritism, ect... And this for pure entertainment.

Throw in the fact that with poker folks are not only paying their hard earned $ but are also expecting a positive return on that $ and you are going to get complaining on an even grander scale for sure and for certain.

It would not matter if God/*insert ultimate good guy/gal of choice* was running the poker site. People will still claim it is fixed/rigged/cheating blah blah blah.

Does this mean unscrupulous behavior doesn't exist? Of course not. Anytime you have the kind of $ found in online poker your going to have people trying to find ways to take it.

The best thing any of us can do is be aware and if something don't look right report it. If you think a site is/has cheating, move on. If you think they all do, find a new hobby.

One last point in the unintended consequences category. I guarantee that these politicians that are opposed to online poker here in the states will use anything they can find having to do with cheating, fraud or criminal activity against the legalization efforts.

thats my $3.95 worth

#**441** 27-09-2007, 1:49 AM

GET REAL POKERSTARS >>

PokerStars Game #12281623457: Tournament #62326955, $11+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2007/09/26 - 13:44:57 (ET)
Table '62326955 10' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: sponzey (1020 in chips)
Seat 2: marilena1997 (6320 in chips)
Seat 3: Hiski (7860 in chips)
Seat 4: ripptyde (4610 in chips)
Seat 5: PAMBOS.L (5375 in chips)
Seat 6: FritsPhilips (4445 in chips)
Seat 7: thisplay (1080 in chips)
Seat 8: Hunter4AA (5450 in chips)
sponzey: posts the ante 25
marilena1997: posts the ante 25
Hiski: posts the ante 25
ripptyde: posts the ante 25
PAMBOS.L: posts the ante 25
FritsPhilips: posts the ante 25
thisplay: posts the ante 25
Hunter4AA: posts the ante 25
Hunter4AA: posts small blind 200
sponzey: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ripptyde [Ah As]
marilena1997: folds
Hiski: folds
ripptyde: raises 4185 to 4585 and is all-in
PAMBOS.L: folds
FritsPhilips: folds
thisplay: calls 1055 and is all-in
Hunter4AA: folds
sponzey: calls 595 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [Js Ts 9s]
*** TURN *** [Js Ts 9s] 7♣
*** RIVER *** [Js Ts 9s 7c] K♥
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ripptyde: shows [Ah As] (a pair of Aces)
thisplay: shows [Ks Ac] (a pair of Kings)
ripptyde collected 120 from side pot
sponzey: shows [8s 7s] (a straight flush, Seven to Jack)
sponzey collected 3385 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3505 Main pot 3385. Side pot 120. | Rake 0
Board [Js Ts 9s 7c Kh]
Seat 1: sponzey (big blind) showed [8s 7s] and won (3385) with a straight flush, Seven to Jack
Seat 2: marilena1997 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Hiski folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: ripptyde showed [Ah As] and won (120) with a pair of Aces
Seat 5: PAMBOS.L folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: FritsPhilips folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: thisplay (button) showed [Ks Ac] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 8: Hunter4AA (small blind) folded before Flop

#**442** 27-09-2007, 1:59 AM

That has happened on many occasion and is not unusual...really I have seen the A-A vs A-A showdown and K-Q suited took down the pot 2-pr.
I have seen the matching pairs go Showdown maybe 10 times out of 100,000 hands of all variety of Games (freeplay/freerolls, $MTT's $ S&G's)

It seems like bad Action Hands.. but really a sign that everyone played the hand right given the level and the Pkt 10's putting you 2 on say A-K or A-Qos or something..
and Pkt Pr. vs. Pkt pr is a coin toss PF and if 10-10 had mucked then it would not have been so bad..like if he was sitting out say..how often in the Million hands that you are able to recall can you say that Q-Q vs Q-Q has happened to the answer to the smell,..issue..in how many recalls can you say that this has ocurred on a frequent basis??

#**443** 27-09-2007, 2:33 AM

Something that floors me is people of all walks will easily put down $100/month on Lottery Tickets or put that much in a Slot machine, or Video Gaming of some sort, and shrug it off as entertainment and a crap shoot at doubling up. Or trying their luck at Bingo for $30/ week=$120/month and not worry one iota about the loss.
But to put up $200 on a Online Poker Site and Stick to S&G's and MTT's
and slowing gnaw away at their BR on Low/micro Limits and then cry 'rigged' at the 1st sign of irregularity..and whittle down their BR to $0.
I am baffled at that Hipocracy, and comparative -EV of a Lottery Win/Bingo Jackpot/Slot-Video Poker machine. Or dropping $300 on a night of Dinner and Pub crawling is a spit in a bucket...
Talk about Skewed variances...
LMAO

#**444** 27-09-2007, 2:34 AM

Just so everyone is aware of why he's now banned, I received this PM from him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlegm Wad

can you delete me from this ignoramus forum please? Thanks

The answer to the question is yes I can and the resulting action is yes I did. Bye bye.

Edit: Anyone else while my finger is on the button?

#**445** 27-09-2007, 7:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefanicov

OMMMFG

WTF

Ive been gone 6 months and this thread still going. Jesus

Just had to do it again for old times sake

Welcome back stranger, its good to hear from you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

So look at #2, ask your programmer friend (whom I doubt exists), and let me know what kind of query you want me to run, just let me know in English what the anomaly is in the data that shouldn't be there. I'm sure we'll prove the rigging is there once and for all.

And I hope you stick around and contribute more... well done sir.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Daniels

Just so everyone is aware of why he's now banned, I received this PM from him.

The answer to the question is yes I can and the resulting action is yes I did. Bye bye.

Edit: Anyone else while my finger is on the button?

Finally, JD... you da man. Can I make requests on bans? Please?

#**446** 27-09-2007, 10:36 AM

ban me so i don't have to read this thread anymore - it makes my eyes bleed

#**447** 27-09-2007, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flops'm&Bets'm

Something that floors me is people of all walks will easily put down $100/month on Lottery Tickets or put that much in a Slot machine, or Video Gaming of some sort, and shrug it off as entertainment and a crap shoot at doubling up. Or trying their luck at Bingo for $30/ week=$120/month and not worry one iota about the loss.
But to put up $200 on a Online Poker Site and Stick to S&G's and MTT's
and slowing gnaw away at their BR on Low/micro Limits and then cry 'rigged' at the 1st sign of irregularity..and whittle down their BR to $0.
I am baffled at that Hipocracy, and comparative -EV of a Lottery Win/Bingo Jackpot/Slot-Video Poker machine. Or dropping $300 on a night of Dinner and Pub crawling is a spit in a bucket...
Talk about Skewed variances...
LMAO

Well I think there is a simple explaination to your insight (which was great by the way). Everyone is told how poker is about skill since the same pros tend to make final tables all the time, etc., etc. Then they see 19 and 21 year old kids making their first WSOP appearance and winning a bracelet and they think, what can a 21 year old know that I won't. So they put their $100 online and they win a couple SNGs and they are feeling good. Then they get the horrific beat and donk off their entire roll.

With the lottery/bingo/video poker, everyone knows it's a crapshoot to begin with. So when they lose, they don't get mad about it. Plus there aren't too many 21 year olds winning the lottery or making a living playing video poker.

#**448** 27-09-2007, 2:20 PM

let's say this for the 100th time and see if any of the "rigged" people actually respond to it reasonably for once.

there are thousands of people with tracking software that could easily show significant statistical deviation from the "real" odds was taking place if it was. there are also thousands of people dying to prove poker is rigged. USE YOUR DAMN BRAIN. why don't you think anyone's got the numbers and proof within a significant sample to back this up? take a goddamn statistics class, get pokertracker, get several hundred thousand hands in your database, then prove to the world it's rigged. oh that's right, tons of people have already tried that and none of them came up with shit

#**449** 27-09-2007, 2:58 PM

Quote:

coinflip-ometer for september: 5 wins 13 losses

ZOMG RIGGED

#**450** 27-09-2007, 3:27 PM

Heres a clanger, you say they use us players as a random number generator, what if everyone made exactly the same move over and over again, and i mean exact exact vectors of mouse movement maybe using a program or wateva, would it be possible to generate the same number, thus playing the same shuffle?

(and ZOMG reading this back make me look like i would think about actually trying this stuff!!)


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