Is online poker rigged??? An investigation!

Your right King theres a hell of a lot of money to gain, and your right that they probably wont get caught, because all the Poker sites are based in little islands not under US or any proper jurisdiction.

Why would they be based there unlike every other business in the world, that is based in major cities such as London, Paris etc.

My conclusion is that they have things to hide. And how will they get caught when they regulate themselves or pay a third party poker to do it, now doesn't that seem like a conflict of interests?

Pegagus! You were right! You got me thinking, so I did some digging, and found this: http://www.cardschat.com/f49/we-wrong-online-poker-fixed-absolute-proof-inside-60140/?highlight=Poker+Rigged%21%21+Proof

I can't believe what a fool I've been!

Sounds like a reasonable solution based on your stated beliefs.

What I want to know is what is your motivation here? Are you trying to save all the online players from the bad guys? Do you want online poker to cease to be? Are you on a personal vendetta to get those suckers who took your $? Are you just venting? or what?

Serious LOL

invisirepped++

Ultimately my motivation is simple, to be able to have just as fair a game as in a B&M casino, online.

I know this wont happen for while, but I think that every online pokersite should be registered and regulated by the same independent body. Its duties should be to review each site very regularly, by examining their algorithm, all hand histories, and have complete disclosure to the whole operation. They should not be based in tax havened tiny islands but in major cities in the world.

And any instances of cheating should default their license and be shut down.

I havent lost any considerable money to it, but just feel that the good players should keep their advantage over poor players, because that is honest and the way it should be.

This would truly end the discussion of RIGGED sites.

..and they do. online or live

No, I closed it because you said you were done with the discussion, but you seem intent on reciting the same garbage from your old thread here and conveniently ignoring responses such as mine which demonstrated that actually, especially with tools like PT at your disposal, it would be relatively easy to prove 'riggedness'. But of course, you ignore all relevant argument that you can't counter just as standard trolls do, and instead concentrate on the insubstantial responses and the little jests that many people have at your expense (just as you will do with this post).

One more stupid claim about any of us being connected to any sites and you won't be making any more claims about anything here at all, by the way.

Edit to quote my post

Again chased around and attempts to discredit me, read my post properly I dont mention PT at all, do I?

I have written several paragraphs why even with hundreds or thousands of
hand histories wouldn't be able to prove its rigged, yet you continue to use this prove it prove it as an argument.

Do you actually read my posts I have tried to counter everything that is put to me.

I have posted very little about these jests, most of the post is my theories and evidence. Again read it.

Calling what I write garbage shows that you are not willing to allow other points of view. Your the one insulting me and calling me troll. I can see why your the most unpopular moderator.

Why can't you just let other people that may agree, comment instead of lying about what I have written.

You have not answered any of my points except with prove it, and have clearly explained that I cant prove it, its just theories.

Threatening to remove/ban me only proves my point more.

From other thread

Seeing as PT is the most popular tool out there, it would be strange if your definition of "every tool out there" were not to include it.

Must I quote myself again?

Like the above stats point? lole

Like the point Egon asked you about in your original thread - why some good players are proven long-term winners and why all the major poker sites would single you specifically out? lole

Like the point Tammy made about that silly "zomg poker is rigged" site you linked to actually having affiliate links? all you did was post "no it doesn't", but, umm, it does. lole

Like.... oh screw it I'm bored of this now already and I only gleamed all that from scanning over half a dozen past posts.

You are trolling. Why else would you join a site dedicated to online poker, full of online poker players simply and purely to spout out theories about how it's rigged?

Deeply sorry, I wasn't aware I was only allowed to post if I agree unequivocally with you on everything.

Yeah, I see how banning you would prove without a shadow of a doubt that online poker is rigged.

I'm going to bed now - I fully expect this thread to still suck when I wake up. Nighty night!

wow...quite the hot button issue...it would be STUPID to "kill the golden goose" by rigging to increase the rake, but i too have noticed an unusually high percentage of bad beats in online play that i NEVER see in brick&mortar play...so i did two things:
1. i tracked my pocket AA where i pushed the action and ended up heads-up preflop for one month. i play every day for several hours a day (used to irritate the happy right out of my wife till she realized i was doing it during times we were sittin around doing nothing anyway, like watching tv) so i saw a lot of hands. i should have seen me winning heads-up, preflop confrontations about 80% of the time, right? i lost 72% of the time.
2. i also noticed that there were times when i could accurately predict 4th and 5th street postflop. my record for postflop prediction is 11 times in a row. so far, this has only helped not lose more chips postflop and not the other way around, darnit. i asked my son, who is a math and computer genius, why this might be. apparently RNG is not truly random, yet. discernable patterns develop in the programming, huh, go figure. maybe the two step RNG has helped to reduce that problem. let's hope so.

Proof plz? (visual evidence might help)

The shame of this whole deal is that the online poker sites could, if they wanted, end all of this speculation. However, they have elected not to do this. They have the power, if they really wanted, to put an end to any speculation about the legitimacy of the online gaming experience. And let’s be very honest – most of the top B&M players that I know are skeptical of the online poker sites and will not play their with their own money. This includes some of the very best players around. These are not people who are being paid to shill for online sites (and even those do not play with their own money – they play their minimum appearance tourneys with house money).

I think I have heard all of the arguments AGAINST online rigging. There are basically 8 that I count. Let’s list them and review them. Here they are – the 8 reasons people give you why online poker isn’t rigged – let’s list them and take a critical look at them and see which of them, if any, hold any water. Basically, here’s the list:

1) The Loser
2) Mission Impossible
3) The Public Company
4) Nothing to be Gained
5) So Much to Lose
6) The Black Box
7) More Hands = More Goofy Shit
8) The Leap of Faith

Of these, as you will see, after putting these under a microscope, only #8 holds any water.

1) THE LOSER – it goes something like this: “you’re just a sore loser and if you were winning you wouldn’t say this.” Frankly, I’m not, but really it doesn’t really make any difference. I have quite a few final table appearances to my credit in $1,000 or higher buy-in national/international events including WPT and WSOP. My total deposits to online poker rooms are less than 1/1,000,000 of my net worth, so even if I lost every single hand, it would be irrelevant. Just because I am willing to take a look at it or have a skeptical outlook, doesn’t mean I’m a loser.
2) MISSION IMPOSSIBLE – this defense tries to convince you that fixing a poker program would be the equivalent of splitting atoms. This is a poker program – we aren’t enriching uranium! I’m not a computer programmer, but I know quite a few, including a couple who specialize in computer games. They assure me that making something happen in a poker program is basically programming 101. If they wanted 3-8 off to beat AA every time, this would be easily done in the context of a program without adjusting the output of a random number generator.
3) THE PUBLIC COMPANY – this is a relatively new one that seems to have popped up as though it has been fed to the masses like some kind of mantra. It ranks very high up on the laugh meter. The way this goes is that by telling you that the poker site is owned by or run by, or somehow connected to a publicly traded company in England or somewhere on some stock exchange, that this somehow is some indicia of honesty. Somehow we are supposed to believe that association with a publicly traded company means there is less chance of dishonesty. Unless you’ve been living in a cave for the last 20 years or are too young to know the difference, you should understand that having something to do with a public company doesn’t mean anything. In fact, the argument can be made that it is more likely to be a sham, rather than less. Does the word ENRON ring a bell? Publicly traded. Auditors said everything was okay. Massive fraud. The whole company was a huge fraud. How about Fannie Mae? This is actually a pseudo-governmental agency which trades as a publicly traded company. 4 years of bogus financial statements, all okayed by the auditors. More fraud. I could go on and on with a litany of literally thousands of public companies who have either been convicted of fraud or who have settled before being convicted. Case closed
4) NOTHING TO BE GAINED – here’s some of the meat of the anti-rig arguments. Basically, they whine something like “why would they ever want to do that? What would they ever have to gain by doing it?” Ummmmm. Let me take one guess. Ummmmm….. MORE MONEY? Actually, they have nothing to gain by determining outcomes ahead of time, and from what I hear, they don’t. But they do have much to gain from doing one thing. Lets for the sake of simplicity divide players into 2 groups. Winners and losers. Money flows from the hands of the weak to the hands of the strong. It doesn’t do this in a straight line. And it doesn’t go directly from the weakest to the strongest. It goes in a chain much like the food chain in an ocean. It goes in and out like the tide, moving in one direction, then another, then back.. and so on and so on, like the tide. Then it moves from one level to the next that way, and from that level to the next higher level in that same way. The online casinos know the same thing that land based casinos know with their slots. It is this: in any exchange among groups, the slower the rate of loss, the greater the chance that they will get additional fresh money put into the system when someone taps out. Same with slots. They’ve tested it. They can have machines that have the same exact payout %. One is a high-volatility machine (less number of pays, average pay higher) and the other are low-volatility machines which give lesser payouts, but more frequently. The end result is the same because the payout % for a machine is fixed in the factory. The players who play the lower volatility machine are much more likely to put more money in because they feel like they have gotten more play for their money. It’s the same with online poker. The sites know that if they can slow up the rate of loss, these same players will eventually lose, but they will be ensuring a much higher rate of additional deposits. How do they do this? By creating situations where the chances of various hands winning versus each other are much closer to 50-50 then the true odds should be. That’s all. It’s that simple. Nothing with marking your account after you withdraw or targeting you. No conspiracy. No flops that are arranged in order to increase the rake. No nothing. The fish like it, cuz they loser slower. The sharks like it cuz it means ultimately that more fresh money is going to come into the system and work it’s way up the food chain. So, when all is said and done, they have plenty to gain from “adjusting” the process to suit their needs.
5) SO MUCH TO LOSE – goes like this. “Why would they risk their business by doing this? Why would they risk losing customers? They have so much to lose. Why kill the golden goose?” Etc. Well, really what do they have to lose. Customers? I think not. After all, how many customers did the cigarette companies lose when they decided to print on the side of the packs “hey dooshbag – thanks for paying us for killing you!”? Answer – none. Not a single person on the whole planet every stopped smoking because of the death warning on the pack. Why not? Because the vast majority of their customers didn’t have a choice – THEY WERE ADICTED TO THE PRODUCT. And I know whoever you are that is reading this, I’m sure I’m not talking to you – I’m talking to some other guy. The same goes for online poker players. The vast majorities of them are to some degree, addicted and will not stop until they lose all their money and run out of credit. Gambling is an addiction. The online sites know this, and so they know that basically you aren’t going anywhere because YOU’RE HOOKED (not you, the other guy next to you).

What else do they have to lose? Nothing. You can’t sue them. You have no recourse whatsoever. They are completely unregulated and report to nobody and can do whatever they please. So basically, they have NO DOWNSIDE to doing anything that they feel increases their business.

6) THE BLACK BOX – different variations of this. One aspect of this is that “the random number generator has been certified by some accounting firm.” Bullshit. Double Bullshit and MORE BULLSHIT. There are no generally accepted accounting standards for measuring random number generators. Also, as we have learned unfortunately in the world of corporate audits – the fact that a public accounting firm says its okay doesn’t mean shit. Also, just because the random number generator is working right, it does not mean that the entire gaming engine is on the level. The RNG is only one part of a much larger program. It’s presentation of cards to the tables and related matters that count. There were several very notable examples in the world of computer backgammon where a site which published its dice stats showing that the RNG was good – but evidence was presented indicating that allocation of dice to tables was flawed.

The other black box aspect is that “well, in a casino you can see the cards so you don’t blame the cards – just because it’s a computer, you are complaining that it’s rigged.’ There’s a lot of truth to this. There really is nothing you can say directly against this because what they are describing is basic human nature – not wanting to take responsibility and finding a scapegoat. But I think this is where the online sites let the cat out of the bag and show that they have no desire or intention of squelching the skeptics, perhaps because they cannot. The simple solution here is to allow your entire gaming engine top to bottom examined and certified by a completely independent outside authority ( not your own self-created paid dues-club either). There are a small number of sites who have done this. Please note that just because it was done once doesn’t mean that they couldn’t have changed the programming later, but at least they had something like that done at some time, and we have to give those sites at least the benefit of some doubt. After all, what are they supposed to do, have their entire program audited every day? That would be akin to asking a baseball player to pee into a bottle before every at bat. But the vast majority of the well known poker sites have NOT completed such a procedure at any time and, from what I hear, have no interest in doing so. A few started such a process, but aborted. Hmmmm. It would appear that if squelching the skeptics was as easy as this, why wouldn’t the sites all gladly line up to do it? Do they have something to hide? Sounds like they are doing the cyber equivalent of “taking the fifth”. What goes through your mind when you hear someone say “I refuse to testify on the grounds that I might incriminate myself!”? I know what goes through my mind when I hear that – GUILTY, that’s what!

And all this nonsense about making online poker legal and regulated?? Whose idea is this? Not the poker sites, that for sure. None of them have any interest whatsoever in having their industry regulated. Among the reasons why is clearly this topic. Having online poker regulated would in fact force them to have legit games. If you are old enough to remember the pre-corporate Vegas or know much about the history of the town, then you know that there was indeed a time when the place was run by guys like Don Corleone and illegitimate games were quite common. Of course today, the city is regulated and all the machines, table games, etc all have to be on the up and up. The online poker world is still like Vegas in the 50’s and 60’s. They have NO DESIRE to change this unless they are absolutely forced to.

You know all these letters that people are being encouraged to write to your senators and congressmen? These letters propose that they make online poker legal and regulate it like other industries? Personally, regardless of what side of the political isle you reside on, I encourage you to write your senators and congressmen. But if you are going to do it, do it about something important. Might I suggest topics such as illegal immigration and border security, terrorism, global warming and alternative energy, the war in Iraq. But please don’t bother them with online dooshbag poker, okay? They should be spending their time and my tax dollars on something important. But I digress. Where was I? Oh yeah, the letters. Ya notice who is encouraging us to write these letters asking for regulation of the online poker? The dooshbags at Pocket Fives.com, that’s who. Did you get any letter from Ultimate Bet asking you to write your congressmen asking for regulation?? Did you get one from Pokerstars? How bout Full Tilt? Paradise? Not me. I didn’t receive a single request from any of those sites encouraging me to lobby on behalf of online poker for regulation. Why the hell not? I mean, you would think that if the sites actually wanted that, they have all our email addresses – you would think that if they wanted that outcome, they would be encouraging us directly. Sound strange that they don’t seem that interested in the idea?? Sure does. Let me suggest that perhaps… just perhaps… you aren’t hearing from them BECAUSE THEY DON’T FRIGGIN WANT IT because they don’t want to be forced to change their programming and run completely legit games. Just some food for thought.

7) MORE HANDS = MORE GOOFY SHIT – this is the canned nonsense that you get from the girl at customer service when you send an email like one of the following:

Dear Customer Support: Something appears to be wrong. We just played 9 hands on our table and in all 9 hands, we had someone with AA and KK for 9 straight hands. Are you sure this is right?”

Or,

Dear Customer Support: Attached is a transcript of hand #645362836453829623 in NL holdem. As you can see, the starting cards for the players were AA, AK, AK, KK, QQ, QQ, JJ & JJ. I’ve been playing poker in casinos since 1981 and I’ve never seen this before. Are you sure this is okay??

Or,
Dear Customer Support: I’ve been playing at this table for 15 minutes. We just played 13 straight hands where a 4-flush came up on the board. Is this normal?

Or,
Dear Customer Support: I’ve been playing at your sight for over a month now. I’ve flopped quads 4 times and lost all 4 hands. Can you explain this?

Usually, you get this canned response saying that because you are seeing more hands and there are more people calling, these are expected. Lobotomy anyone???

8) LEAP OF FAITH – I guess “Some Dude” is on target here. In the end, this is what it’s all about. It’s all what you think it is.

Here’s how I see it. It appears that there is more than ample motive for them to run an “enhanced” game. All of the common retorts that they use to defend and pooh-pooh naysayers are easily shot down. In the face of such possibilities, the ones with the power to prove the legitimacy refuse to take those steps so, if you want to belief in the legitimacy of online poker rooms, you are left with one reason and one reason only – the leap of faith. “Trust us”

You mean like the Kahnawake Gaming Commission which licenses and regulates most, if not all, major online casinos?

And organizations such as these that were mentioned in the OP and that many of the top sites are certified by?

I even went through the trouble of emailing FullTilt's support, I know this is hardly evidence, but it shows you that they are currently in the process of having their software evaluated and certified...

you missed 9) No actual statistical evidence to substantiate 99.999999999% of "zomg rigged" claims (the 0.0000000001% basically being the Absolute issue).

There may be 8 (or however many) arguments as to why poker isn't rigged, but there are no valid ones to say why it is.

I Applaud your +rep integrity on doing all the Research about the RNG.
And using PokerStars as the Industry 'Marker'. The Big 3 Online Poker sites have more to gain in public trust than they do in 'fleecing', rigging, action-flopping, or weak fish feeding/breeding.
Party Poker stock was being offered on the market. If you had shares in them you can request a statement summary of the Operating Expenses.
If I see PokerStars and Full Tilt Ads on TV and I play on those sites I take confort in knowing that any rake that I have contributed, a 'micro' portion of that is paying to get those ads to entice new players to the site, and generate interest to players that may log in to get in a game.
Large Portions of rake are going toward,

• Administration costs (Support Staff *emails/accounting)
• Operating costs
• Freerolls and Promotions
• Advertising/Marketing
• Banking Fees (Huge!)
• Software Development/Updates
• Server Fees
• Contract/Promotion Players (Professionals)

It is not all gravy to run this kind of outfit, I am certain that in order to run a tight ship that fromtop to bottom there are many checks and balances to maintain any sort of Integrity to facilitate a smooth operation.
People have tendancies to think on the 'micro' level since Poker is the game and what cards they are holding is all that matters at the moment.
That kind of Focus leads to that kind of thinking.

I worked in a Professional Assay Lab that ran tests on all sorts of things.
Safety Standards for Firedoors, X-Ray testing Welds for Pipelines, Natural gas samples, and Gold Mine Core Samples.
These employees are all from Scientific Backgrounds with Degrees, and get paid really well to do their Job, and the Company that Hires them to do the tests, have to have Absolute Credibility..since the same tests are being done with the same samples at another Professional Lab as well.
This ensures accuracy and differentiates variance.
To prove that - Yes the amount of Gold in this area is x- amount per mg.
- Yes this Natural Gas is this % of Sulfur etc.
- Yes these Fire Doors CAN withstand 340*f Temperatures

In the route of a few 'Greedy' people in an organization. The short term gain vs. the Loss of Freedom (Imprisonment) or Loss of Employment, or the Loss of the Company.
It is a known fact that even in B&M Casinos, that it is Big Brother/Eye in the Sky and Moles at every turn to keep everyone on the up & up.
The same would account for these Online Casinos as well..
All the IT Techs, and Software Developers, and the Best in Engineering are working for these Companies, and are being watched and monitered, and tracked with every stroke of the mouse or keyboard.
So any Illusions that it is a 'walk in the park' and 'piece of cake' to get even remotely near hacking a Poker site or insider 'greasing'. Is mainly the failure of a 'micro' thinker, in believing their own Paranoia is Truth and Factual.

Like in Scarface, Blow, or Sopranos...once you are 'in' there is no getting 'out'.
The Lesson in Greed is as Old as History, and if People have enough self control to STOP, they would be Home Free. Just like Playing Poker, get to your level of success and call it down the river to retirement, or Bet All-In and know that you either have the Nuts, or you are going to the rail.

~When you are Beat the FOLD button is a mouse-click away.~

Online-Poker is Rigged Threads on forums will never end, but if these players could expend the same energy in Learning and Applying the lessons rather than rant about rigged probabilities. They may just realize that in the end it is 'Only a Game' and it is 'Only Money' and neither buys Happiness. Merely Short-Term Gratification. Life and the Sum of its experiences determines the whole equation, Any success that is difficult to achieve erases - one bad-beat. The Long View is never the shortest path.

It amazes me that the players who grip about the site being rigged are still playing there!!! Why plunk money into a site if you think they are cheating you? As for Blackjack, only rigged in that the rules of the game favor the casino.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlem Wad Does the word ENRON ring a bell? Publicly traded. Auditors said everything was okay. Massive fraud. The whole company was a huge fraud. How about Fannie Mae? This is actually a pseudo-governmental agency which trades as a publicly traded company. 4 years of bogus financial statements, all okayed by the auditors. More fraud. I could go on and on with a litany of literally thousands of public companies who have either been convicted of fraud or who have settled before being convicted. Case closed.

Does the word 'cooked books' mean anything? Or underhanded 'Fatal' threats mean anything, BlackBalled have any weight in a Professional Community??

Does an echo in the halls at sound of closing doors of Online-Poker Sites
sound like a reason they aren't insisting that you Lobby. Doyle Brunson on Poker after Dark said to write your Congressmen and He Runs a site. Pokerstars runs Freerolls for you to sign up for in a PPA Membership drive-Whats that all about.
I don't Live in the U.S. so why should I care?? Right?
I shouldn't but I do because they are fellow players and happen to care what happens to their 'Opportunity' to get away from a Labor festering Life that bleeds people, off the sweat from their backs to put a few $ in their pokets and morsels of food on the table and enough to put $10 in the tank to get to work everyday....Man Life is hard enough trying to get by with Quality Skill on the workforce. If I can Play a Sunday Million and WIN the Top Prize I am set for at least 2 years of wages..

Some people play for fun, others the challenge, and others view it as an "option" and others yet see it as a Hobby. There are some people where that is all they have to keep them enthusiastic about life if they are in Wheel-Chairs and cannot work, or are retired and have very few friends alive to play any cards with at all.
There are many people that are making a 'Name' for themselves through Poker, and Good for them, not all of us can be Professional Poker Players.
But that does not mean it is Impossible, and If I gain enough 'Skill' online and I play the 'principles' of sound poker I may still lose a Tournament but have enough knowledge of the game to proceed to a Level where I have a potential of Earning a sizable income beyond a Corporate Slave labourer, keeping grease on the wheels in motion.
For what Corporations make in Profits off the backs of common-folk, and Big Business Ceo's making 10's of Millions as a figure head over-seer when the Lay-off happen cut the Fat at the top and everyone still has a Job for another 2 years of salary..for Christ's Sake...where is the sense in that??
~Shuffle-Up and Deal!!!~
~Play the hand you are dealt and win or lose at least you played the Game.~

Nice copy and paste job BTW!!!

I am Quitting all Forums and Poker and taking up 'Greenhouse Emissions Lobbyist', and I will smoke till I die because I have seen what life in a Nursing home at 90 years old is like....and I'd rather live doing what I prefer, than wasting in a bed for 5 years getting spoon-fed BS from Nurses and Family that only visit at Christmas and Birthdays...
In the end all you really need is a Geriatric Bed and a Side-Table to put your dentures in a glass.
Try going for a walk on your own from one of them institutions--No way--Confinement/Prison...
~Life is RIGGED!~

~Let's Play some Poker~

Very nice post Phelgm Wad I can see that you have put a lot of thought into this, its nice to see well thought out and reasoned opinions, but what does the Dork reply with yet again? Prove it. Not reasoned counter arguments or reasons why they don't push for proper regulation.

Just Prove it, Prove it, you sound like a child arguing.

In your posts you have lied about software I mention, questioned my ability at Stats, said I have only played 2000 hands in my life, called my posts garbage, called me a troll, said my posts suck and generally just insulted me, without even knowing anything about me.

In contrast I have tried to put forward reasoned arguments with information about previous rigging/ cheating, countered any arguments against and not resorted to petty assumptions and insults at your expense.

A lot of people seem to not want to question the fairness of the games, I believe this is because they are stubborn, ignorant, and/or just have blind faith that the games are not rigged?

In fact whether the games are fair or not should be the number one question asked, because if not, every other question about poker is redundant, due to the fact no matter how you play ultimately the Poker sites decide who wins when and who loses.

OMMMFG

WTF

Ive been gone 6 months and this thread still going. Jesus

Rigggggggggggggged

Just had to do it again for old times sake