Official Absolute scandal thread

#**246** 21-10-2007, 5:37 PM

Absolute Poker is totaly a fraud.
The server is located i Kahnawake near Montreal, this is an indian reserve owned by an ancien grand chief Joe Norton.
This morning in the Montreal(Im from Montreal) news paper they said Absolute Poker have give back all the buy-in to everyone who have enter the tournament.
Why pay back everyone if its not a fraud ?

Anyway i hate those kind of casino cause they are make billion $ every year but they did not give anything back to there own community.

Just in this indian reserve, they have 6 of the 10 biggest casino on earth but they cant event build a school for there children, its realy an ungly place where u can find: drugs, weapons, cigarettes
They dont pay any tax, there not doing anything but keep the money for them, so for that reason i dont play in those site.

I invite u to do the same as me and ban all the Canadian Indian Casino from ur list of good poker site

#**247** 21-10-2007, 5:43 PM

there wont even have a real investigation because it will be done by some crook Indian officer, Canadian police cannot enter the reserve to investigate, its just not under there juridiction, so if someone think they will have a honest investigation... think again

#**248** 21-10-2007, 6:51 PM

...why do you think they have blackjack on their site...i don't know what blackjack is doing on a poker site, but as for me, i would never want to gamble online, against the house. i'll just stick with poker...
yea and there is video here saying an employee admitted on friday he hacked the game...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21381022/?GT1=10450

#**249** 21-10-2007, 7:33 PM

Statement posted on 2p2 (I haven't read it yet).

Quote:

Please find initial AP Statement for open release from Jo Norton the former Grand Chief of the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake and the owner of Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG, which holds a 100% interest in Absolute Poker.

Quote:
October 21, 2007

Dear Absolute Poker Player:

I am the former Grand Chief of the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake and the owner of Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG, which holds a 100% interest in Absolute Poker.

As many of our players are aware, there has been a security breach in our system that allowed unlawful access to player information that resulted in unfair play. I am writing to you today to let you know what we know so far in order to set the record straight, and to assure you of Absolute Poker’s commitment to player security. I am sure that this letter will not address all of the questions and concerns you may have, nor will it extinguish the heated discussion surrounding this issue. At this point, our intention is to let you know all we can disclose and to assure you of our continued efforts to keep you informed as best we can as the investigations continue.

We deeply regret this situation has occurred. A breach in security in online poker is serious and of great concern to players and the industry worldwide, and this particular situation has been the subject of debate within the poker player community and in the media, giving rise to the creation of several websites and hundreds and hundreds of comments, opinions, and theories of what occurred – some of which are accurate, and some that are not.

Like you, I have not been happy that during the initial stage of our investigation, Absolute Poker has not been more forthcoming in providing a timely or comprehensive explanation on this matter, giving rise to anger, suspicion, and concern on the part of our valued customers. I hope that our customers can appreciate that this remains an incredibly complex and sensitive issue, and I want to give you my strongest possible assurance that we will be as forthcoming as possible on how this breach occurred and what we are doing to remedy the situation.

What We Know and Actions We Have Taken

Absolute Poker was notified by a customer that a possible cheating incident occurred during a recent tournament, and in response forwarded players’ hand logs. This disclosure of the hand logs prompted our customers to determine that a more serious security breach had occurred. We immediately launched an internal investigation and also requested a formal audit by Gaming Associates, an acknowledged world-wide expert in audits, interactive gaming tests, and information security.

Based upon our preliminary findings, it appears that the integrity of our poker system was compromised by a high-ranking trusted consultant employed by Absolute Poker whose position gave him extraordinary access to certain security systems. As has been speculated in several online forums, this consultant devised a sophisticated scheme to manipulate internal systems to access third-party computers and accounts to view hole cards of other customers during play without their knowledge. As this consultant was aware of the details of our fraud detection process, the likelihood that the scheme would be uncovered through our normal procedures was minimized. We consider this security breach to be a horrendous and inexcusable offense.

We will pay for all losses suffered by the affected players as soon as our audit is finished and the amounts are determined. Although we are in the process of attempting to recover all the winnings of this consultant, any unrecovered losses of affected players will be paid by Absolute Poker so that all affected persons will be made whole.

Next Steps

We are still investigating whether the consultant was acting alone or in concert with others, and it appears at this time that all account holders are innocent of collusion and were unaware of any wrong-doing by the consultant, who was immediately terminated. We continue to investigate this matter aggressively, and all of these preliminary findings are subject to the audits currently underway. We have recently uncovered additional accounts used by the consultant that have not been publicly reported. So as to not compromise the investigation, we are not releasing the names of these additional accounts at this time, and will contact these affected customers individually.

The specific allegations of unlawful activity are being investigated both by Absolute Poker and by the authorized authorities, including the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. We will continue to actively cooperate with these authorities in full compliance with the Regulations Concerning Interactive Gaming. In addition to our own investigation and the audit by Gaming Associates, we have also submitted to an audit by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission.

Please be assured that we have corrected the problem that allowed the system to be unfairly manipulated. We are working furiously to increase the safeguards within our systems. While we are satisfied that our systems are secured, we realize that our security systems must be continuously monitored and enhanced.

Without question, this incident has been unfortunate for all concerned, and we will emerge as a stronger company. I realize it will take some time and much more information for Absolute Poker to re-earn the trust and confidence of our customers who are in doubt of our commitment to the highest levels of security, privacy and integrity. As we move to address and correct this situation, our valued customers have played a vital role in uncovering this scheme through various online forums and have become an active part of the solution.

With my full sincerity, I thank you, and I promise to keep you updated as we bring this situation to a close.

Sincerely,

Joe Norton

#**250** 21-10-2007, 7:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankAllinStein

there wont even have a real investigation because it will be done by some crook Indian officer, Canadian police cannot enter the reserve to investigate, its just not under there juridiction, so if someone think they will have a honest investigation... think again

Talk about Absolute all you like, but racial stereotyping doesn't have a place in this thread or forum. Anything that crosses that line will be deleted (if in doubt PM me to ask where it is).

#**251** 21-10-2007, 7:48 PM

lol, it's like "i assure you the system is completely safe (despite the fact that it was hacked"

#**252** 21-10-2007, 7:57 PM

Wow - quite an admission. I guess I am a bit more forgiving than others.

#**253** 21-10-2007, 8:11 PM

#**254** 21-10-2007, 8:12 PM

Some good legal advice in that statement. Especially the part about them even uncovering even more fraud not mentioned anywhere else.

The site new a long time ago what happened, and waited to see how it was going to play out. Then when they had no choice but to take their lumps, only cause they were backed into a corner like a rat did they come forward. After profits probably took a major hit, did they come forward and decide to make all players that were affected whole.

If it were cheaper to deny, no doubt would of been the road they took.

#**255** 21-10-2007, 8:43 PM

has this yet had any affect on Absolute Poker?

has their traffic reduced?

just a straight question, i don't play there, i wouldn't know

AD

#**256** 21-10-2007, 9:02 PM

Oct 10 @ 7:51 PM 2795
Oct 11 @ 7:50 PM 2613
Oct 12 @ 7:14 PM 2479
Oct 13 @ 8:09 PM 2163
Oct 14 @ 7:39 PM 2352
Oct 15 @ 8:02 PM 2611
Oct 16 @ 6:49 PM 2593
Oct 17 @ 7:56 PM 2411
Oct 18 @ 7:49 PM 2461
Oct 19 @ 7:20 PM 2310
Oct 20 @ 8:20 PM 1928

from pokersitescout. it's too early to tell the effect, really

#**257** 21-10-2007, 9:19 PM

I'm curious as to if or how they will ever address/compensate the players who's personal information was leaked out in that Excel spread sheet.

It's good they've finally admitted wrong doing, but I have no plans to ever play there again.

#**258** 21-10-2007, 9:44 PM

I transferred all but a little over $3 to Ultimatebet. That last amount I was able to lose with no problem to some guys named Potripper and Kaedyn2007.

Now my account is zero.

#**259** 21-10-2007, 11:47 PM

Quote:

We immediately launched an internal investigation and also requested a formal audit by Gaming Associates

BS... this all went down before mid September, who knows how long before that.

I'm glad I have a NONE.00% "interest" in Absolute Poker, and proudly never have, never will!

#**260** 22-10-2007, 5:28 AM

Personally I don't believe a word of anything Absolute say. They've lied at every opportunity up to now - why should this be any different? No sympathy please dakota - why forgive them because they've just come up with a new lie (and only after it became completely obvious they were lying in the first instance, so were forced to change their story)?

On 2p2 a number of the cheating accounts were linked back to people in Scott Tom's college fraternity. So this "consultant" (who five minutes ago was "just some programmer geek") would need to know who all the old college friends were of the former CEO he was trying to frame. An elaborate framing system, despite making the effort to get round the detection systems so it would never be discovered, and would only get found out if someone in support sent out everyone's email addresses by mistake. It just doesn't add up.

#**261** 22-10-2007, 6:03 AM

Absolute Boycott gogo

#**262** 22-10-2007, 11:48 AM

So........

Joe Norton owns Tokwiro Enterprises.

Tokwiro Enterprises owns Absolute Poker and UltimateBet

Absolute Poker and UltimateBet are registered and regulated by Kahnawake Reservation in Montreal.

Kahnawake Reservation is owned by Joe Norton.

Sorry, but can someone explain to me again why UltimateBet aren't included in the site boycott?

#**263** 22-10-2007, 12:46 PM

You do realise that about 80 poker sites are licensed by KGC, right? Would you have all them boycotted too, despite zero evidence of wrongdoing?

Seriously, stop baying for blood unless it's Absolute's.

#**264** 22-10-2007, 2:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorkus Malorkus

You do realise that about 80 poker sites are licensed by KGC, right? Would you have all them boycotted too, despite zero evidence of wrongdoing?

It's not the licensing by KGC that's the problem, it's the fact that Absolute Poker and Utimate Bet are licensed by KGC AND owned by KGC. That doesn't apply to 80 sites, it doesn't apply to one site, it applies to two - Absolute Poker (blacklisted) and Ultimate Bet (site download linked to site). If it has been shown that Tokwiro Enterprises have failed to stop a breach in one of it's 2 poker company's security, and if it has been shown that KGC are unable to audit and regulate a company that they also own (a HUGE conflict of interest by the way), then why does Cardschat have to wait before it's members are ripped off before they act?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorkus Malorkus

Seriously, stop baying for blood unless it's Absolute's.

I'm hoping that that's a request and not an order, as i'd have a real problem if you were giving me orders.

#**265** 22-10-2007, 2:11 PM

Could Scott Tom not be the high ranking consultant they are referring to?

#**266** 22-10-2007, 2:37 PM

Personally, I think it was the guy in the grassy knoll with a laptop, that was responsible. I have a picture, but the CIA seized it.

#**267** 22-10-2007, 2:38 PM

Rob,

It was merely a suggestion based on the fact that thus far nobody at Ultimatebet has been implicated in any wrongdoing. It's not about "waiting for someone to be ripped off", it's more like "not taking action against people without evidence". We should be focusing on the facts in hand, and all the facts in hand relate to the incompetence and/or fraud of Absolute Poker.

Debi,

AJ Green is the 'high-ranking consultant'. Scott Tom is apparently his boss, which conflicts with an earlier statement from Absolute saying he had had nothing to do with the company for the past year or so.

But then again, what more do we expect from Absolute, heh. :/

#**268** 22-10-2007, 2:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorkus Malorkus

Rob,

It was merely a suggestion based on the fact that thus far nobody at Ultimatebet has been implicated in any wrongdoing. It's not about "waiting for someone to be ripped off", it's more like "not taking action against people without evidence". We should be focusing on the facts in hand, and all the facts in hand relate to the incompetence and/or fraud of Absolute Poker.

From the same website you get all your info from ; Absolute Poker purchased Ultimate Bet in Oct, 2006. $10 million in cash and about $140 million in 5 future annual payments.

You don't need to wait for Ultimate Bet to be implicated in any wrong doing. Ultimate Bet IS Absolute Poker.

I've said all i'm going to say in this thread.

#**269** 22-10-2007, 7:07 PM

I certainly wouldn't play on Ultimate Bet now, because it's run by the same bunch of crooks who I don't want to give my money to in rake.

There's probably at higher risk of fraud there as a result of being run by proven cheaters, but that's secondary.

#**270** 22-10-2007, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robwhufc

It's not the licensing by KGC that's the problem, it's the fact that Absolute Poker and Utimate Bet are licensed by KGC AND owned by KGC. That doesn't apply to 80 sites, it doesn't apply to one site, it applies to two - Absolute Poker (blacklisted) and Ultimate Bet (site download linked to site). If it has been shown that Tokwiro Enterprises have failed to stop a breach in one of it's 2 poker company's security, and if it has been shown that KGC are unable to audit and regulate a company that they also own (a HUGE conflict of interest by the way), then why does Cardschat have to wait before it's members are ripped off before they act?

I'm with Rob on this 100%.

I understand DM's argument that, so far, there is no evidence of any wrongdoing on the part of Ultimatbet, but nevertheless it's owned, and the operations are run, by the same company. If I have a doubt on the legitimacy, security and reputation of one (Absolute Poker), then I necessarily have to extend that to the 2nd (Ultimatebet). This, IMO, becomes even more so when, as pointed out by Bombjack, their story on what happened just doesn't add up and has gigantic holes. Lets not forget their attempts to cover it up. The only reason they had to come up with some story is because the evidence became overwhelming.

Not to mention that if the people involved in this didn't get greedy, God knows how long this could have went on. Or, I might say, has been going on. One has to admit that the circumstances in which this came to light were fortuitous to say the least, because despite the fact that high stakes players were involved who are knowledgeable enough to know when something doesn't look right, w/o that file sent to "CRAZYMARCO" there is a very high likelyhood this whole thing would have been buried.

With all that in mind, granting trust to Ultimatebet is something I just can't do. As they say, the 1st time it's shame on them, but the 2nd is shame on you. It'll be a long time before I'll trust them again, if I ever will that is. Plus, with so many poker sites available even to US players, I really don't see why I should. I'm just sorry that Party can't accept US players at this time, hopefully in a couple years they'll be able to.

Screw Tokwiro Enterprises and screw Joe Norton, I hope they go out of business and somehow disappear forever from the online poker community.

#**271** 23-10-2007, 9:37 PM

Faced with the 'facts' as presented, I have no problem believing it happened. Kudo's to all the folks who investigated, prodded, and exposed these wrongdoings.

That said, this may end up being one of the better incidents that could have happened in the wide world of online poker. Even for Absolute!

Should Absolute survive the next 3 months, what site could you point to and feel sure was the safest to play at. Absolute will have to go through the most rigorous self examination, as well as finding, patching, and preventing all future problem areas.

Do you really believe it hasn't happened, or can not happen again, at any site? Suppose for a moment that a similar incident happened at PokerStars, if they handle it slightly different from the very beginning, they avoid the public scrutiny, and embarrassment and hopefully improve their site, and our security in these frequent site updates.

For the accusations to be directed at Absolute, one must show that Absolute and or the current management was behind all of this. Rather I think that perhaps Absolute was the unwitting dupe used in this scheme. As old employees are often brought on as consultants, it is not out of the question that the consultant mentioned was the old CEO.

The fact that the whole poker community worldwide is involved in this fiasco, even if it is only on the informational side, is a good thing, not a scandal that threatens the sport. It will probably pave the way to a unified method for regulating all interested online gaming concerns.

Again, special kudos to those tenacious few who persevered in their investigation and brought to the forefront this example of a problem we as online players must deal with.

#**272** 24-10-2007, 12:39 AM

Looks like this crap may have been going on for as long as 3 YEARS!! Read more here:

Stick's Poker Blog: Just When You Thought It Was Over: More Absolute Poker Stuff

And I'm convinced that Ultimatebet is clean because the Absolute Poker/Ultimatebet merger is recent and the software each site uses is completely different from each other. The issue is with R&D accounts within Absolute Poker's software.

#**273** 24-10-2007, 1:16 AM

it's too bad their (point-spread's) article is so poorly written or it might appear more credible. either way, i don't doubt it

#**274** 24-10-2007, 3:36 PM

People need something to blame when they lose. Online poker is truly random compared to a live dealer shuffling cards. Many strange outcomes are possible and they are remembered wheras more normal outcomes are soon forgotten. It would not be good business for a poker room to cheat. They just rake, rake, rake and THAT'S THE NAME OF THAT TUNE.

#**275** 24-10-2007, 4:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narizblanco

People need something to blame when they lose. Online poker is truly random compared to a live dealer shuffling cards. Many strange outcomes are possible and they are remembered wheras more normal outcomes are soon forgotten. It would not be good business for a poker room to cheat. They just rake, rake, rake and THAT'S THE NAME OF THAT TUNE.

umm did you read the thread?

(a) the evidence is irrefutable

(b) Absolute actually admitted it

#**276** 24-10-2007, 5:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narizblanco

People need something to blame when they lose. Online poker is truly random compared to a live dealer shuffling cards. Many strange outcomes are possible and they are remembered wheras more normal outcomes are soon forgotten. It would not be good business for a poker room to cheat. They just rake, rake, rake and THAT'S THE NAME OF THAT TUNE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorkus Malorkus

umm did you read the thread?

(a) the evidence is irrefutable

(b) Absolute actually admitted it

No, the thread was not read. Dock him two posts!

#**277** 24-10-2007, 5:56 PM

[quote=MrSticker;642275]Looks like this crap may have been going on for as long as 3 YEARS!! Read more here:

Stick's Poker Blog: Just When You Thought It Was Over: More Absolute Poker Stuff

quote]

Wow... three years. That just boggles my mind...

#**278** 24-10-2007, 7:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSticker

Looks like this crap may have been going on for as long as 3 YEARS!! Read more here:

Stick's Poker Blog: Just When You Thought It Was Over: More AP Stuff

And I'm convinced that Ultimatebet is clean because the Absolute Poker/Ultimatebet merger is recent and the software each site uses is completely different from each other. The issue is with R&D accounts within Absolute Poker's software.

If true that's an incredible story. Of course we can't be sure about it but I wouldn't be surprised that this has been going on for a long time. Since they lied about the whole story from the beginning one doesn't really know what to believe anymore. If it really is so, for sure they wouldn't like to admit that it has been going on for a long time, and that for obvious reasons, no need to explain them.

It's fine that you think Ultimatebet is clean but I just can't trust them anymore. I do realize that I don't play high stakes (neither cash games, nor tournies > $100 buyin) so the chances I'd be affected by any kind of scam are as close to zero as it can get. Even if I were the financial ramifications of it wouldn't be astronomic, but it's a matter of general principle. Online poker is based solely on trust, and it was clearly and w/o any doubt abused by Tokwiro Enterprises.

#**279** 24-10-2007, 7:55 PM

In regards to my previous comment please disregard it. I see cheating has occurred and I was wrong. Hopefully the socalled 'consultant ' will be prosecuted to the full extent oof the law. Death to the Infidels.


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