Never Raising With A K Again

#1 25th March 2009, 11:58 PM

In one tournament I got A K four times in a row I raised all four times to 3xBB and I didn't hit an A or K in that four turns could you believe that,and the turn just after I got 10 8 flop was A K A what THE HELL IS THAT ABOUT!Just today in a couple of SitnGo's I got A K like 5times and still didn't hit anything but the turns just after A's ands Ks came I will call with A K but Never Raising Again.

#2 26th March 2009, 12:07 AM

I feel your pain. I still will raise, but I've been BLASTED so hard w/AK lately, It's an easier fold for me than it used to be. Ive gone from "AK...awesome" to "AK...dammit".lol

#3 26th March 2009, 12:14 AM

22 is better starter. Dont forget about position when playing slick...just a thought

#4 26th March 2009, 12:57 AM

Well I hope you're prepared to miss out on plenty of money

#5 26th March 2009, 1:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The PoolBoy

22 is better starter. Dont forget about position when playing slick...just a thought

how can u actualy believe this?

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.045% 66.22% 00.83% 5556016860 69221952.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 32.955% 32.13% 00.83% 2695828836 69221952.00 { random

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.844% 49.01% 00.91% 537940749 9998687.50 { 22 }
Hand 1: 50.156% 49.32% 00.91% 541361044 9998687.50 { random }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 59.536% 54.80% 04.74% 386582996 33426656.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 40.464% 35.73% 04.74% 252032940 33426656.00 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.641% 39.28% 00.36% 299962605 2772982.83 { 22 }
Hand 1: 60.359% 60.00% 00.36% 458179013 2772982.83 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }

Yes 22 is a very slight favorite over AK pre-flop.
But 22 can never dominated a hand and it is allways fliping or crushed if u get it all-in prf where as AK dominates or is fliping against all but two hands witch you are also less likly to be up against since the fact that u are holding AK limits the possible AA and KK combos significantly.
Bottom line AK is better. Those people that think 22 is better please feed your HH´s into PT3 or HEM and check witch hand is making you more money/chips(or losing u less).

OP yeah u missed a bunch of times with AK, it sucks but your burning money if your gonna stop playing it.

#6 26th March 2009, 2:54 AM

Results oriented much? Oh and what Sindri said.

#7 26th March 2009, 3:18 AM

I just took at look at my HH's on Poker Copilot. My biggest loser is AKs, 22 is a small winner and AKo is a big winner... Boards never hit when AK are suited for me. I still prefer AKs over 22 any day.

#8 26th March 2009, 3:41 AM

1) Take a deep breath
2) Take as many as you need

----A) Maybe take a day off
----B) Relax with your drink of choice

3) Play poker again
4) Get AK
5) Raise without hesitation
6) Win bigger pots

7) Bonus contradictory item: I'm feeling especially perky about Big Slick after felting someone who was holding AK last night

#9 26th March 2009, 7:59 AM

yeah I like AK one thousand times better in Tournys than NL Cash Games...but I love raising with the hand. I miss hiting the flop with AK many times, but I still win many of the hands right on the flop or sometimes on the turn. I mean, are you saying you never bet it if it doesnt come A or K right away?

Also--I think limping with it is asking for disaster and financial ruin

#10 26th March 2009, 9:02 AM

You should raise it again!
Keep betting after the flop if it looks good. The other player probably did neither hit the flop!
And you will get a K or an A the next four times in a row and will not post here....

#11 26th March 2009, 5:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sindri_93

how can u actualy believe this?

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.045% 66.22% 00.83% 5556016860 69221952.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 32.955% 32.13% 00.83% 2695828836 69221952.00 { random

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.844% 49.01% 00.91% 537940749 9998687.50 { 22 }
Hand 1: 50.156% 49.32% 00.91% 541361044 9998687.50 { random }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 59.536% 54.80% 04.74% 386582996 33426656.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 40.464% 35.73% 04.74% 252032940 33426656.00 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.641% 39.28% 00.36% 299962605 2772982.83 { 22 }
Hand 1: 60.359% 60.00% 00.36% 458179013 2772982.83 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }

Yes 22 is a very slight favorite over AK pre-flop.
But 22 can never dominated a hand and it is allways fliping or crushed if u get it all-in prf where as AK dominates or is fliping against all but two hands witch you are also less likly to be up against since the fact that u are holding AK limits the possible AA and KK combos significantly.
Bottom line AK is better. Those people that think 22 is better please feed your HH´s into PT3 or HEM and check witch hand is making you more money/chips(or losing u less).

OP yeah u missed a bunch of times with AK, it sucks but your burning money if your gonna stop playing it.

this is all great.....but how many tournaments you get knocked out calling/pushing all in with one pair 22....vs calling/pushing all in with one pair AK (post flop i mean.)

i rather have pair of 2s.....get payed more if you hit a set.......lose less preflop with 22.

#12 26th March 2009, 6:26 PM

In early tournament play, AK is a in small, lose big type of hand to me. I generally try not to overplay it. So I usually open raise 3xBB regardless of position. If the pot was already opened with a raise, I'll call if it's a sensible raise like 3-4xBB. I'm not wasting chips on all-ins or overbets preflop. If it's a bunch of limpers I'll raise between 3x and 5x. If it gets rid of some of the riff raff that's fine. If I hit, I bet accordingly but if I miss I usually don't continuation bet unless I'm only up against one player. The blinds are just not worth it to lose my stack over trying to semibluff. I want to keep the pots small with them because even if I hit, it's only TPTK.

In the middle and late tourney (blinds are high and antes kicked in) is when I'll open and cbet with them frequently because it's less fish and donks calling my raises so I could get some folds if I miss. I'll also start 3 betting preflop because the pot is big enough to try and take down right there.

Also, late tourney, I shove them instead of regular raising because I want to see all 5 cards since it's a drawing hand.

DOn't know if that helps but it works for me. I really don't go to war with Ak until late in the tourney. Early tourney, it just isn't worth it.

#13 26th March 2009, 6:32 PM

I have always stated that AK is a difficult hand to play. Only good players will make money from AK without getting lucky. Also it is overvalued more than any other hand. It is only Ace high. People seem to think an ace or or king has more chance of hitting the board than others! Think about it. When holding AK you have 6 outs to pair. If you hold QJ (in which you should almost never play) you still have 6 outs to pair. Exactly the same amount of chance a Q or J will hit the flop, as an A or a K does!

Open limping is suicide. A better idea would be to check and trap on the BB or just limp on the SB, IF you have a decent stack at your disposal.

Being out of position post flop holding AK which has paired or better is a well disguised position.

I make small pots with AK unless im shortstack in which you MUST shove EP and MP. Fold to a raise UTG. Again limp LP unless you really have to push, at around 10 big blinds.

Continuation bets are crucial in deepstack play and just try and get a better read and force your opponent to fold. If he is holding 99 on a flop of 10s 4d 7s and he has alot of fold equity, bet, raise and shove wherever possible.

If he calls and A. Sucks out - Hes a scumbag
B. Makes a good call - Only scumbags call there

#14 26th March 2009, 6:55 PM

Tough to understand when that happens but it does happen. You cannot put forward an arguement based on 10 or 12 hands because there is no statistical basis for such a small number. I am sure you know the odds for hitting an A or a K in the flop and if you played afew thoudsand hands you would find that the odds would match up pretty well. Does not make it any easier when you go through a bad spell.

#15 26th March 2009, 7:44 PM

I've been stung quite a few times with AK and tend to limp with it now in full ring games so I can see the flop as cheaply as possible.

Short-handed it's a different matter and I play it much more aggressively. But I wouldn't claim to have mastered the best way of playing it.

It's one of those hands that puts you in a difficult spot because you feel you should be winning pots with it.

But, as others have stated, at the end of the day it's only ace high.

#16 26th March 2009, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shylax

In early tournament play, AK is a in small, lose big type of hand to me. I generally try not to overplay it. So I usually open raise 3xBB regardless of position. If the pot was already opened with a raise, I'll call if it's a sensible raise like 3-4xBB. I'm not wasting chips on all-ins or overbets preflop. If it's a bunch of limpers I'll raise between 3x and 5x. If it gets rid of some of the riff raff that's fine. If I hit, I bet accordingly but if I miss I usually don't continuation bet unless I'm only up against one player. The blinds are just not worth it to lose my stack over trying to semibluff. I want to keep the pots small with them because even if I hit, it's only TPTK.

In the middle and late tourney (blinds are high and antes kicked in) is when I'll open and cbet with them frequently because it's less fish and donks calling my raises so I could get some folds if I miss. I'll also start 3 betting preflop because the pot is big enough to try and take down right there.

Also, late tourney, I shove them instead of regular raising because I want to see all 5 cards since it's a drawing hand.

DOn't know if that helps but it works for me. I really don't go to war with Ak until late in the tourney. Early tourney, it just isn't worth it.

Perfect tourney startegy with the AK. ^^ No matter what you need to raise. It's a big hand pre-flop and you should raise while the goings good. As with every hand, after the flop you need to re-evaluate. Even with AA if the flop comes KKJ, you have to play the situation, and you're probably behind. If you don't hit you're AK and don't think a c-bet will get through, then check fold. It's always powerful before the flop, but only occasionaly after it.

#17 26th March 2009, 11:40 PM

the best thing about AK is that if you do hit the A or K on the flop, there's a high chance someone else has a piece too. (AQ/KQ type hands which almost never fold pre)
these hands are easier to get paid off on than sets.

#18 26th March 2009, 11:46 PM

i would have to say that AK is about useless in the beginning part of any tourney in the beginning of any tourny anyone will call because the blinds are so low and not to mention that with AK you are only 1/8 to catch on the flop i would say to wait for the morons to be flushed out before yo try raising AK because the real players will only play something tat has you beat then you wont bust on the infomuss AK people crack me up becau everyone seems to think AK is a made hand LMAO

#19 27th March 2009, 12:04 AM

WOW!!! that was some hellatious analyisis. I won't look at AK the same way again, however, that doesn't change the old addage that AKs is best "starting hand" in poker. A 3-5xBB raise is in order when you get it!!! When it hits on the flop play it accordingly (based on your position, what hits the board and how the other players react). However, if it MISSES the flop, let it go to any bet, it is after all only a great "starting hand"!!!

#20 27th March 2009, 3:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDDP

WOW!!! that was some hellatious analyisis. I won't look at AK the same way again, however, that doesn't change the old addage that AKs is best "starting hand" in poker. A 3-5xBB raise is in order when you get it!!! When it hits on the flop play it accordingly (based on your position, what hits the board and how the other players react). However, if it MISSES the flop, let it go to any bet, it is after all only a great "starting hand"!!!

Did u just make that up?...never heard that before.

#21 27th March 2009, 3:40 AM

Big Slick
I have been burnt so many times.
I feel your Pain.

After a while I realized:
(O Wait here comes the bashing the messenger type posts)
As with all the Top hands they are just starting hands.

I have realized the error of my ways.

Over and Over I should repeat in my head..
They are just great preflop starting hands.
Nothing more.

Ok I may not even believe my own words.
But it may be true.
You can Lose Large amounts when don't hit.

You can win small amounts when they hit.

Please don't over play them.

Good Luck with AK.

#22 27th March 2009, 4:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetrimguy

i would have to say that AK is about useless in the beginning part of any tourney in the beginning of any tourny anyone will call because the blinds are so low and not to mention that with AK you are only 1/8 to catch on the flop i would say to wait for the morons to be flushed out before yo try raising AK because the real players will only play something tat has you beat then you wont bust on the infomuss AK people crack me up becau everyone seems to think AK is a made hand LMAO

WHAT? Figure your odds again, trimguy. You're way off on this one. You have six outs, three streets on the flop. Do just the rough odds calculation. Plus nut straight and flush possibilities.

There's some knowledgeable advice on here (Sindri) and a whole lot of real bad advice and bad math. Search AK threads and find aliengenius's great posts. AK is clearly superior. It's not even close. And that's not just a gut feeling.
GtW

#23 27th March 2009, 4:30 AM

I think Ace King is a wonderful hand one of my favorites, but on fulltilt the underdog is more likely to win the crap cards.

#24 27th March 2009, 4:32 AM

AK ia a fantastic starting hand, as you really only have to worry about running into AA or KK, and often times when people overplay AQ or AJ, you can clean up. Sometimes bad luck just attaches itself to a player and a hand, for me its KK...almost a guaranteed A on the flop every time, without fail.

#25 27th March 2009, 6:01 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but there are only 5 hands that are better than AK at a full table - AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs. At a table with 2-4 players the better hands are AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT. This is based on winning odds for AK of appr. 4-1 (8-10 players) and appr. 1-1 (2-4 players). For 22, the winning odds are appr. 7-1 (8-10 players) and appr. 2-1 (2-4 players).
If my figures are wrong, then either my sources of information are wrong or my conversion from percentage to odds is wrong. (I prefer using odds because I can relate it to betting on the horses).

#26 27th March 2009, 6:28 AM

Key advantage is not just that you "may" hit the high pair but that you hold the high card if no one pairs, plus the best kicker if someone else happens to have an ace. Of course, this is more critical with less players so getting them to fold early due to you higher bet pre flop is where your advantage grows

#27 27th March 2009, 7:34 AM

I didnt see this one above, so...

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.986% 47.67% 00.31% 78367080 513624.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 52.014% 51.70% 00.31% 84986856 513624.00 { 22 }

so this to me says 22 better

coming from my AQ to 22 loss

#28 27th March 2009, 3:24 PM

I always go all in with AK .... and many times we won the jackpot without any emotion

#29 27th March 2009, 4:34 PM

oh the ignorance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliengenius

I posted these thoughts in another thread, but I think they are worth repeating here:

The advantages of AK are mostly in it's preflop value:

1. Fold equity. This is the biggest advantage of AK. For me it is almost alway a REraising hand preflop. For you to take advantage of this, you MUST play it aggressively (your opponent must fold). Small pairs can't really call you for fear that you have a bigger pair when you play it aggressively. If you do get called, even by something like QQ, you are still only a slight dog.

2. Pre-flop dominating hand. This is mostly applicable against donks who will call you with Ax soooooded. Inversely, you are only really dominated vs AA or KK (and you have about 30% vs KK).

3. Post flop your top pair always has top kicker when you hit.

Obviously when your opponent goes all in he has neutralized AK's biggest advantage as he can no longer fold. Against two random cards that don't include either and ace or a king you are not that big of a favorite with five to come, as other posters pointed out. But you don't ever really want to be calling an all in with very many hands (AA and KK excepted)-- YOU want to be the one doing the raising or pushing.

Just to look at it another way, let's compare AK to a small pair, say 55.

AK is a dominating hand. IF your raise is called you are (most likely) either:

1. way ahead (vs. a weaker ace)
OR
2. in a 50/50ish race.

With 55 you are (most likely) either:

1. way behind (vs. a bigger pair)
OR
2. in a 50/50ish race.

See the difference?

#30 27th March 2009, 5:51 PM

I was playing in a MTT Sit & Go and were down to the last 105. Top 90 get paid. First I'm in the button position and I get AK of clubs, I raise 4 times the blind. bkinds are 750 and 1500. I have 80 000 approx in chips. Small blinds folds and Big blind pushes all in for 62000 more. ARRRRG I call, big bling is sitting with pocket aces. Flop comes up 10, J, 9 of clubs. Turn card comes 10 of diamonds and the river card come A of hearts.

#31 27th March 2009, 8:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller

Big Slick
I have been burnt so many times.
I feel your Pain.

After a while I realized:
(O Wait here comes the bashing the messenger type posts)
As with all the Top hands they are just starting hands.

I have realized the error of my ways.

Over and Over I should repeat in my head..
They are just great preflop starting hands.
Nothing more.

Ok I may not even believe my own words.
But it may be true.
You can Lose Large amounts when don't hit.

You can win small amounts when they hit.

Please don't over play them.

Good Luck with AK.

true.. i am ready to fold them if i miss, and some times i may push allin, thats when i am short stacked.... Though i don't see AK all that much.

#32 27th March 2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CostyBigRoyal09

I always go all in with AK .... and many times we won the jackpot without any emotion

1) Hand 1 of tournament
2) Blinds 50/100 Starting Stack of 30,000
3) Dealt AK UTG
4) Always go all in
----4A) Win 150 from the blinds
--------4A.1) You win "the jackpot without any emotion"
--------4A.2) You have table lead with 301.5 BB
----4B) Called and dominated
--------4B.1) You lose the jackpot with plenty of emotion as sadness ensues

#33 28th March 2009, 2:57 PM

Good Ole Big Slick, you can't live without them, no matter how much heartache it has caused you in the past. Although one of the good starting two cards to have, it can eventually also be your demise in a game. I like to play AK's passive aggressively. I would live and die by this most of the time at an all-in preflop.

#34 28th March 2009, 3:22 PM

I always play ak with caution and usually dont raise but 2.5 to 3x bb with it. Most of the time I usually miss with this hand. In late position on the button with no callers I limp trying to trap with this hand but yeah you have to raise it up some to better your odds and eliminate limpers in the pot. Best of luck!!!

#35 31st March 2009, 1:23 AM

I see people over play AK time after time after time. The hand is a good hand to raise with but i see so many that cant get away from it on flop.

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