Need another opinion

I have been using software that automates my poker play. A friend of mine told me that that is bad..err unethical or cheating i guess but i don't think so. It doesn't cheat in any way. I just configure what hands to play preflop and how to play postflop on what i flopped. I have been successful using it but he says that's cheating. I don't think so. What do you guys think?

It's cheating that's called using a bot.

I think you will be making a lot of posts in the near future.
They will be along the lines of : Grrr Party Took all my money! Wahhh Wahhh!
I don't understand why! Grrrrr Wahhh Wahh.

So good luck with that.

Sorry, but it's 100% cheating. Welcome to Planet Earth. What planet are you from where it isn't cheating?

(Not to be harsh, but I just thought this^^ sounded cool. Welcome to the forum.)

Is this something like Texas Calculatem?I dont think I quite understand what program your using......is it an odds calculater???????

Poker's supposed to be fun. Sounds like you're just interested in scamming money out of people.

I'm actually very profitable online and at the casino. I wouldn't automate bad play. LOL. I'm from another forum but need an opinion without anyone knowing who I am. I don't think it's cheating. It doesn't share card information with other poker bots. It just plays like it would if I was there. It doesn't make much, maybe one big blind per hour. I probably make more as I read players well.

Would you automate play if you were successful. I guess Earthlings aren't that smart. JK Thanks for the welcome.

Taking the human element out of the game is not playing poker. It's just well.....cheating.
Besides what fun is it to let a computer make all the decisions for you?
Don't you have the skill to win your own money?

No, I really honestly don't think I would. Maybe I'm the stupid one but I really think it stinks what you are doing.
Welcome to the forum, stay if you like... but you may want to go back to your other forum where cheating must be considered cool.

Nah, they probably think it's cheating, too. He's just looking for someone else to agree with him.

Why don't you just put a disguise on your friend, send him to your next live tourney, and have him play like you & say he's you. Same thing because IT'S NOT YOU PLAYING! No matter how you program it, it aint you.

Now I am being harsh. I still welcome you to the forum, but what you are talking about is serious and is one of the reasons they are trying to ban online poker in the US. Probably best to drop the subject, bud.

How 'bout them Dodgers? Do you like baseball?

I don't doubt you are profitable or not.
And I understand that you will make this program play almost identical to your true play.

So let's analyze it:
Do I think this is a good idea?
Yes. I do.

Will it work?
Yes it will. (or it should if you do it right)

So what's the problem?
The poker sites have access to your harddrive.
They know what you are running when you have the poker client running.
This type of program is against their T&Cs.
They will close your account. They will confiscate ALL the money in that account.

That's where I was going with my Original Post.
If you are from one of the forums I suspect you are from, I suggest that you make a "gnome" account, run up the post count in the Off Topic lounge for a few weeks, then post your question there.
You will get about 15 stupid responses, but you might, just might get one good one. Which is exactly why I believe you are here.
You know that.

Seriously dude, it just isn't worth it.
To make any decent money at it. You would have to have some sort of roll on there, and the amount you make vs the risk of having it confiscated is just too -EV to even try it.

It just MIGHT work on a smaller site, but again, I still think it's too -EV.

Good luck dude.

update your blog you shit

I would if I could.


The software runs hidden...I'm not worried about detection and cash out every week.

So do it Then.
But it would really be appreciated if you could post what happens on one of the major forums after it hits the fan.
And if it doesn't happen, Then Good on you!
Just be sure to mix up your play in this program. Because they will catch you.

It's not like Texas Calculatem...it does play proper odds though. I have added an aggressiveness factor to it.

you sly dog, you.

You must not be making very much. At decent stakes, I'd be shocked if everyone was so stupid that there wouldn't be someone who could take advantage of a completely automated, predictable player. Play at my table any time, please.

You can take a look at an article below about a very successful bot that was programmed and ran on its own....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6002298/

Poker sites might ban you for it because it's against their rules, but, is using an automated system really cheating? I can see the reasoning in believing that your mind is an automated system/strategy... and as for poker sites having "access to your harddrive", they might be able to see what programs you have hooked in with their poker client, but I'd say that's about it...except for Prima of course. If you run a spyware program it'll show them as being, if I can remember correctly, a trojan. No software runs "hidden", you might think it does, but it doesnt...it has to be running somewhere, somehow, in some sort of state. It's just a matter of time until they figure out what exactly you've got attached to them.

found this on another site

This is one reason I can't see PartyGammon real money tables taking off. It's too easy to get a computer or standalone machine to calculate the optimal moves.

What they don't mention in this article is that the Vex Bot has only mastered the heads-up game. Multi-way is a lot more complicated.

Guys, QUIT PLAYING ONLINE. Online is full of players like the guy who started this thread. I personaly get better results if I play myself than having a bot play for me (thats plain stupid, half of poker is reading other players).

The real problem is players playing with each other. Collusion!
You can not stop that or do anything about it, except starting to play live games like the game is supposed to play.

Cheers,

I don't know, I think collusion is probably easier in live games, where people are more likely to know eachother, can soft play, squeeze, manipulate the deck, and signal to each other.

Although I would be a bit worried about collusion in high stakes Omaha games, where most of the deck is dealt out and the stakes are worth the attentions of organized crime. In the $10 Sit and Goes I play, I don't think it's an issue at all.

Right now I'm not making much. Less than one big blind per hour (around $5). There are just so many bad players online that it's not hard to make money if you stay tight, play your cards, play your position, and don't bluff that much.

For the guys that say this a form of cheating, do you consider all the other programs that help you cheating? Odds Calculators, Tracking Players, etc. If not then what is your reasoning. They still help you and that is not meant to be.

Even with PT/PAHUD/whatever, ultimately a human is still actually playing the game. Comparing something like PT with using a bot is a ridiculous, self-serving attempt to justify what you're doing.

And, here's the crux of the matter, using bots is against the Terms of Service of the site you're playing on (note also that PT/PAHUD/etc aren't against the ToS). Therefore it is cheating, as the site is providing a service to you, under the agreement that, among other things, you will not use 'bot' software. You are therefore 'cheating' the site, and 'cheating' other players who (a) adhere to the Terms of Service, and (b) expect all others whom they play with to adhere to the Terms of Service.

I see this as undisputable, and any attempt by yourself to somehow classify it as not cheating is in my opinion, as I've already said, just a weak attempt to justify your actions.

I'm a programmer by day and I've looked at these bots in the past. You get past the poker rooms because they run on a PC other than the one with the poker software on it. Thats the easy part. If the rest of it was so easy then everyone would do it. There is so much coding involved to create a successful bot that you would have a hard time really making any money. If yours is averaging a blind an hour, then you are doing well, and kudos to you. Personally I've seen a lot of the guys here play online and they have nothing to worry about because I highly doubt the average Joe could program a bot to play every circumstance and I like to make money, so I would welcome them at my table. There is so much more to the game than just position and the cards that are showing. Why dont we propose Freakakanus vs the Bot - we could make a movie!

Mod edit - please do not link to software that is banned by poker sites. ~DM

This is clearly cheating. The first, most obvious, and least disputable reason is that it's against the rules of the major poker sites, and so by definition it's cheating to them, the final arbiters of whether your cash gets confiscated.

You're using tools that are strictly against the rules to give yourself an advantage (correct play that doesn't get tired or go on tilt, or simply the ability to play more tables or play while you're napping or cheating at something else) at the expense of other players.

Honestly, the moral ambiguity required to question whether this is cheating is substantial.

What fish meant was that what you are doing is against the rules at most (if not all) sites.
They will confiscate your bankroll or your winnings if they find out, which they inevitably will.

I really don't like the idea of these "bots". Computer AI in its current state is not anywhere near the point where it can come close to being able to play poker exactly like you do. There's always those "gut instincts", getting a feel for how other players play, etc.. that human element that computers cannot replicate... and probably won't come close to for a LONG time.

So yeah, you can tell it how to play vague scenarios, it can try and guess what players have by the way they've played previous hands. But in the end, it's just not a good idea. One of the biggest problems with these bots is that it has to log a lot of hands from a lot of players... yes, it gets smarter as it goes. But by that point, you have become a very predictible player to those that have played against "you" for a long enough period of time. They will be able to figure out your thresholds for bets to call. Yes you can just play random tables all the time, but then your bot doesn't have much info to go on.

Apart from all the technical aspects, this method does absolutely NOTHING to improve your game, in fact it is very harmful to your play. OK, if it is working for you and you are making decent money using a bot.. it's hard to not do it. But realize this, you are perpetuating a problem which the poker sites ARE actively seeking to end. You are going to be caught up in the battle of:

1) Poker Site figures out how to detect your bot, ban you
2) You modify the bot to become undetected again and go to a new site
3) GOTO 1

After enough iterations of this loop, you will be banned from all poker sites. Not a game I wanna play with.

So... bottom line? IF THE BOT IS GOING TO TRY AND PLAY LIKE YOU DO.... JUST SIT DOWN AND PLAY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Easy money never turns out to be quite that.

Without wanting to sound too much like an old fuddy-duddy, whatever happened to morals? Don't you have any, odds_maker? It seems like you're hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, which you think makes it OK to be a cheat because no-one knows who you really are. But I don't think it makes a difference: it's the same act of cheating as if you were doing it at your home game, and you should be just as ashamed.

It's also very bad sportsmanship.

Thank you, really, but your first post in a poker forum is telling people not to play? ? ? bah! People might be using them, but they sure as hell don't know how. ...I think I'll play.

America Lost its morals around the time Britney Spears put out her first video! whoooo!

First, the person who started this thread DOES NOT really care about the game of poker. Yes this is cheating!!!! You are cheating the game of poker, and you're cheating yourself. I dont let my buddy gamble with my money online even though he is a very good player and this fool lets some preprogrammed bot play his money. Unless this BOT knows all the hole cards of the other players it will lose more than it wins. Like the reply of the other member AI doesnt hold a candle to a human player. I cant believe someone would admit to this...lol....lol ....unreal. I dont care if people do this pathetic poker bot crap, but it makes me a little mad because I respect the game of poker and so do alot of others and I think it just rubs us the wrong way. Well, gl all that really do play this game...lol

I'm not sure if I should be flattered or insulted....LOL

only bots in memory will be found, not one run from another PC as hurricaine said. a lot of cheats for online games run the same way. detectable on the pc, but using packet sniffing software and custom made programs that act on a 2nd box make it nigh-invulnerable to detection