My journey back to square 1

Liveone1 said:

At frist I thought you wanted to improve, so I genuinely to help. But, since you insist on making the same mistakes repeatedly (refusing to acknowledge sound advice), I can see you just enjoy attention and self loathing and anyone who will help you indulge so I'm laughing at you. You can't be taken seriously.

Now I see why when people make it to the top they don't bother to help others and look down on the rest of us. lol what a joke.

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I thought this was pretty funny too. So.. you're supporting him if he takes your advice.. but if he doesn't then it's time to attack him?

Your suggestion that what it takes to win at poker... can be acquired on the playchip tables is a serious joke imo. It'd be like telling someone > "you know if you go play bridge down at the Senior's Hall for the next 6mos. & be reallllll patient with their play... & just stick to that (cuz that's what it's all about.. the discipline to stick with it!!!), then you'll become a winning poker player.
(in other words.... it's a completely different game. If PI can't learn what you're suggesting he needs to learn, do you think he'd learn that on the fishfest playchip tables?... or bridge?).

If you want to stick to grinding the playchip tables... great!! Personally I'd rather dump $'s & re-deposit every day of the week.

imo.... playing the playchip tables is similiar to driving you car in Sunday traffic, getting to the next stoplight first (ahead of the senior's out for a Sunday drive)... & thinking you're learning how to become a better racecar driver (or that in some way it'd be of benefit). To practise discipline & patience... I think one would be better off to try balancing a ball on their nose for 5mins. per day, then to play on the playchip tables. (sorry.. but as you can see, I feel pretty strongly about it. I know that for myself, I'll occassionally play around on 2nl & 5nl tables on a site where I have a small roll.. for 'fun'... but of course I'm always trying to crush them with the biggest possible winrate possible. I do notice however, that if I get into the habit of playing on these tables a few nights in succession, it negatively impacts my Tournament game when I return to playing my usual game. This is part of the reason why I think that playing on playchip tables can do more harm to a new player than good (I mean once they've discovered how the cards are dealt, how the betting works, how the software for a particular site works & learn how to set their tables up with whatever settings they discover they prefer. There's little else use for them imo. 'maybe' OP feels simliarly? Or doesn't want to spend that time there when they feel they're capable of playing on tables with better play?)

Although, I believe working from nothing and working ur way up is good for discipline, I do not think it is worth your time to start playing freerolls again when you have the option to deposit. You could deposit a bankroll (maybe 100-150) and find some games that you can win consistently and play things within you bankroll rules and work from there. Maybe when your on tilt, you could develop the discipline to not let yourself go on tilt and simply log off and live to play another day. I hope you end up getting to where you want to be. Good luck.

I also wouldn't try to build a bankroll on two different sites because than that hinders your ability to take adv. of some promotions that you can get by sticking with a particular site. Good luck again.

PI, sorry to hear you got scammed bud. You should have just PM'd one of us regular members here and asked us to handle a transfer for you. If, in the future you need to transfer again, just send me a PM, I'll be glad to help you out.

Also it's good to see you're on the upswing again. Keep your patience and don't lose your cool by trying to "take shots" again and you should keep trending up.

GL man.

sorry to hear about your scammin situation dude. pretty dirty..

KAAHK is right that alotta of ppl here could help you out

TheKAAHK said:

PI, sorry to hear you got scammed bud. You should have just PM'd one of us regular members here and asked us to handle a transfer for you. If, in the future you need to transfer again, just send me a PM, I'll be glad to help you out.

Also it's good to see you're on the upswing again. Keep your patience and don't lose your cool by trying to "take shots" again and you should keep trending up.

GL man.

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Thanks a lot KAAHK. I really appreciate the support dude. It was hard keeping my cool and rebuilding AGAIN after being scammed, last thing I needed for sure.

Also, some news that the same guy who gave me the $15 on Full Tilt wants to stake me for $25 on pokerstars. He said 65% stake to him and 0 make up, sounds like he wants me to gamble with some money.

PattyR said:

haha ill try to keep it quite....buuuut it takes a long time to rack up a milli play chips

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not really u can do it in one day 1k to a million, and 30 million in 2 weeks playn a couple hrs a night, makes a nice way to start a bank

GBurn387 said:

not really u can do it in one day 1k to a million, and 30 million in 2 weeks playn a couple hrs a night, makes a nice way to start a bank

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not really if you follow BRM

Poker Orifice said:

I thought this was pretty funny too. So.. you're supporting him if he takes your advice.. but if he doesn't then it's time to attack him?

He's not taking anyone's advice. This is why I'm attacking him. He appears to, then doesn't and flushes his roll. To top it off he's crying claiming that him flushing his own bankroll had nothing to do with his own decisions. If he were to have taken it on the chin instead of throwing a pity party after the fact then it'd be different.

Your suggestion that what it takes to win at poker... can be acquired on the playchip tables is a serious joke imo. It'd be like telling someone > "you know if you go play bridge down at the Senior's Hall for the next 6mos. & be reallllll patient with their play... & just stick to that (cuz that's what it's all about.. the discipline to stick with it!!!), then you'll become a winning poker player.
(in other words.... it's a completely different game. If PI can't learn what you're suggesting he needs to learn, do you think he'd learn that on the fishfest playchip tables?... or bridge?).

This analogy is a joke and would in fact be a waste of time. It doesn't relate to poker the way play chips, abc poker and will power directly does. My advice is sound for anyone who will take it. There's plenty to learn from playing with play money if you do it right.

If you want to stick to grinding the playchip tables... great!! Personally I'd rather dump $'s & re-deposit every day of the week.

Brilliant.


imo.... playing the playchip tables is similiar to driving you car in Sunday traffic, getting to the next stoplight first (ahead of the senior's out for a Sunday drive)... & thinking you're learning how to become a better racecar driver (or that in some way it'd be of benefit). To practise discipline & patience... I think one would be better off to try balancing a ball on their nose for 5mins. per day, then to play on the playchip tables. (sorry.. but as you can see, I feel pretty strongly about it. I know that for myself, I'll occassionally play around on 2nl & 5nl tables on a site where I have a small roll.. for 'fun'... but of course I'm always trying to crush them with the biggest possible winrate possible. I do notice however, that if I get into the habit of playing on these tables a few nights in succession, it negatively impacts my Tournament game when I return to playing my usual game. This is part of the reason why I think that playing on playchip tables can do more harm to a new player than good

This is because you view play money to be a waste of time and allow it to affect your game. The problem is your own.

(I mean once they've discovered how the cards are dealt, how the betting works, how the software for a particular site works & learn how to set their tables up with whatever settings they discover they prefer. There's little else use for them imo. 'maybe' OP feels simliarly? Or doesn't want to spend that time there when they feel they're capable of playing on tables with better play?)

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Once they've figured everything out as you say most people think they know more than they do and start going bust fast. For instance, OP. This is why it's important to wait it out. Redepositing small amounts of money is just dumb and OP's proven why. A large deposit I could understand, though be against in his case, but it's either that or play chips.

If someone is in a rush then they should quit poker. It's not about the money or how fast you make it. This is another one of OP's huge on the surface problems along with many other people.

Don't you see that you will encounter plenty of variance along the way to 20 million chips?

Don't you see that the only way to actually get to 20 million chips quickly is to shun the negative variance which OP clearly can not do?

Don't you see that once you have 20 million chips in 2 weeks thanks to sticking to ABC and not cracking the way you apparently do when you play at the play money tables will give you a starting roll of $80 minimum without ever depositing? I doubt OP could do this at 2NL and has proven this.

Do you have any idea of the mental advantage you have when you are playing with free money?


Everything people have against play money is more reason to grind it out.

-Phil Ivey27 said:

What are you talking about?

Because I made a $10 deposit for one last try and now am rebuilding?

You seriously need to relax dude, I am taking in everyones advice and have gotten some really good advice at that, just because I may not necessarily be going down the path that you think doesn't mean you need to go tryna attack me so chill out

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I'm chill. I'm just letting you know I think this is hilarious. Your taking bits and pieces of advice selectively. My life will go on if you don't take mine. All your getting is "small redeposit" and "BRM" because that's what you want to hear. That's fine. It's just pretty damn funny to watch to be honest.

Liveone1 said:

I'm chill. I'm just letting you know I think this is hilarious. Your taking bits and pieces of advice selectively. My life will go on if you don't take mine. All your getting is "small redeposit" and "BRM" because that's what you want to hear. That's fine. It's just pretty damn funny to watch to be honest.

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lol couldn't have said it better myself :icon_salu

and lol'd hard at the scamming. Seriously, any respected member on cardschat would do that transfer for you no problem.

Liveone1 said:

hen you play at the play money tables will give you a starting roll of $80 minimum without ever depositing? I doubt OP could do this at 2NL and has proven this.

Do you have any idea of the mental advantage you have when you are playing with free money?


Everything people have against play money is more reason to grind it out.

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Can you aware me as to how that = $80? Just curious, not doubting. I never played play money myself so don't know.

^^You guys make me LOL

Liveone1 said:

Do you have any idea of the mental advantage you have when you are playing with free money?

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No... please enlighten me.

My experience has been > On a few sites I've actually managed to build a small/workable bankroll from an initial freeroll cash or two,... & what I've found is that it tends to make one hoard their roll more than anything else... not wanting to lose them pennies after having put in the time & work playing the freerolls & not wanting to do it again.

I still don't see any 'mental advantage' to it? (as far as how or 'if' it'd affect one's play).

This analogy is a joke and would in fact be a waste of time. It doesn't relate to poker the way play chips, abc poker and will power directly does. My advice is sound for anyone who will take it. There's plenty to learn from playing with play money if you do it right.

I'm assuming you didn't understand what I was getting at >> there's little to learn in 'play chip' games... & what one is learning there will largely need to be 'unlearned' once they get on real tables.

Update is this- $25.44 on Full Tilt, have had a rough go of things lately.

-Phil Ivey27 said:

Update is this- $25.44 on Full Tilt, have had a rough go of things lately.

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Nice Phil ...I hope it all works out for you, plz join us in the CC games, so I then can take you out (Bad Joke)...On a serious note wish the best for you

Poker Orifice said:

No... please enlighten me.

My experience has been > On a few sites I've actually managed to build a small/workable bankroll from an initial freeroll cash or two,... & what I've found is that it tends to make one hoard their roll more than anything else... not wanting to lose them pennies after having put in the time & work playing the freerolls & not wanting to do it again.

I still don't see any 'mental advantage' to it? (as far as how or 'if' it'd affect one's play).

Sure. What you described and have experienced is the very definition of playing with scared money and we all know that's a no no. When you're playing with free money you're back isn't against the wall and your emotions are less involved. I didn't think this was necessary to say, but poker is a mental game and can be stressful (tilt), so emotions can run high. Any mental edge you can get you should take. So, when you've built from $80 of free money to ________ and are playing higher (even when your still playing low) it's all a bonus and you won't care about the money (you're big on that right?), so you can play to win and make better decisions at the table. Common sense should really be all you need to figure this out, dude.

I'm assuming you didn't understand what I was getting at >> there's little to learn in 'play chip' games... & what one is learning there will largely need to be 'unlearned' once they get on real tables.

I understood your analogy, but it doesn't apply. When playing with play chips you're playing on the actual site and you, to take a page from your book, "learn how the software works" if that's how you'd like to interpret it. Really though, you learn how to deal with variance and your mind is forced to understand that the site isn't rigged to have some type of vendetta against you when you deposit. Thus forcing you to take accountability for your wins/losses at the table. You have a breakthrough. Many people will benefit from this. Your not there to improve your quality of play and the same applies with micros. Your there to build a roll so that you can play in higher stakes games where superior strategy/play is rewarded. It should go without saying that as you move up it's only natural that your play must improve.

& what one is learning there will largely need to be 'unlearned' once they get on real tables.

If that were enough incentive to avoid play money, then no one should ever play at 2NL 5NL 10NL because they would have to unlearn it when they moved up to 100NL, 200Nl, etc. The truth is that they would simply have to adapt to the tougher level of play. The play at 2NL isn't a far cry away from play money, so adjustments will be minimal, if even necessary if you were playing a solid ABC fundamentally sound poker game at the play tables to begin with as required in order to move up to 2NL in 2 weeks which is the entire point. It's not rocket science.

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Two weeks of play money is sounding less and less like a waste of time.

Liveone1,

While I personally wouldn't play the playmoney tables at gunpoint, I respect the fact that they have apparently helped you. That being said, what I really object to about your posts in this thread is your attacks on the op.

Just because he chose to take a different path than the one that you reccomended doesn't mean that he deserves to be ridiculed by you.

Frankly, I don't see exactly what play money would teach him anyways. He seems to have a good grasp of fundamental poker, he just struggles with BRM issues. I'm not sure how spending x amount of hours playing the worst players on the site with no real gain possible will encourage or teach him how to manage his bankroll better.

alaskabill said:

Liveone1,

While I personally wouldn't play the playmoney tables at gunpoint, I respect the fact that they have apparently helped you. That being said, what I really object to about your posts in this thread is your attacks on the op.

Just because he chose to take a different path than the one that you reccomended doesn't mean that he deserves to be ridiculed by you.

Frankly, I don't see exactly what play money would teach him anyways. He seems to have a good grasp of fundamental poker, he just struggles with BRM issues. I'm not sure how spending x amount of hours playing the worst players on the site with no real gain possible will encourage or teach him how to manage his bankroll better.

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It's kind of unreal that no matter how many times you reiterate a point, provide sound and logical reasoning for it that people only see what they want to. All you guys keep saying is you don't agree with it, but can't go into great detail. That's fine, I guess. When you do try to go into detail, it doesn't make sense and you indirectly contradict yourselves. If people refuse to recognize the benifits of play chips after everything I've posted concerning it in this thread, then we'll have to agree to disagree. I've done my part and the info is here for anyone to take from.

I only "attacked" OP once and haven't bad mouthed him since. It had nothing to do with my advice specifically, either. Really, that doesn't mean I want the guy to fail, I just told the truth and still think this is 'lol' funny. I already stated he isn't taking anyone's advice, tunring around and whining. This will be apparent soon enough. I can't respect crying when failure is due to one's own poor choices and that has nothing to do with play money.Man up and keep it moving. Don't look for others to coddle you. How I feel about it. We'll agree to disagree here too.

What advice am I not taking and where am I crying?

If you ask me I was updating the thread..

Sorry not sure if I missed this, but did you repay the guy who gave you the $10 from the 1st loan?

Yes I payed him $20 I think

Liveone
You're on here suggesting that others are failing to interpret what you're saying.... but you are actually doing this yourself. (please... try not to put words in my mouth.. tks)

Sure. What you described and have experienced is the very definition of playing with scared money and we all know that's a no no.

Wrong ^. What I've suggested is > they will tend to have a desire to practise BankrollManagement.

all a bonus and you won't care about the money (you're big on that right?)

You've misinterpretted me on this ^ here too. I'm big on > play the game, make the best decisions at any given time.. 'forget about the money' ('forget about the money' isn't suggesting 'to not care about the money'... I'm saying "don't focus on the money".... focus on the game & how you're playing it, period!).

"learn how the software works" if that's how you'd like to interpret it. Really though, you learn how to deal with variance and your mind is forced to understand that the site isn't rigged to have some type of vendetta against you when you deposit. Thus forcing you to take accountability for your wins/losses at the table

You've really twisted another one of my quotes here. My saying that playchip tables are maybe good for 'learn how the software works'... is a reference to > learn how the bet slider is set up, learn how the table action works, learn how the timer works, player action, table setup, etc. etc. NOTHING about how the cards fall & whether or not it's about getting used to variance instead of some myths about 'rigged beliefs'.. or wherever you've gone with this one (somewhere out in left field from what I've read.. I mean "learn how the software works" gets twisted into 'variance & it's not rigged & learn how to deal with it.. don't blame it on site.. or some other bs... whoa, lol).

then no one should ever play at 2NL 5NL 10NL because they would have to unlearn it when they moved up to 100NL, 200Nl, etc

This isn't true. One can gain an understanding of the game & get a foundation in the basics while playing on 5nl & 10nl tables. Sure it's mostly ABC poker but there are plenty of players grinding out those tables who play fairly decently (meaning, a complete noob with limited knowledge/experience will likely have their ass handed to them if they just immed. start out playing 10nl). I believe that playing 10,000+ hands at 10nl would be solid advice for anyone with aspirations of moving up to be playing 100nl.

This is because you view play money to be a waste of time and allow it to affect your game. The problem is your own.

What???

I'm curious, you really seem to know why playchip tables are so worth playing... that there's something to be gained by playing them. What exactly is your experience on 'real money' tables? I mean... what are you comparing it to.. to know the difference?
(ps.. this will be my last response, my last question.. cuz really... me spending time responding to your responses on here is probably worse than spending time on playchip tables). I guess I just don't like being quoted & then reading after how the perception of what I've stated is so very different from what I was saying.

Anyways, GL PhilIvey!! Keep on grinding away!

I feel for ya OP. I deposited $100 in January and built it up to over $350 and just today I went busto. I never went above the limits I said I was gonna play, I just hit the most horrible variance I have ever run into. The worst part about it is that according to pokertracker I have been severely unlucky in the last week (about 20k hands) and I should have only lost about $100 rather than the $350 I actually lost.

Luckily I played so much poker in the past week and generated so much rake that my rakeback payment on Friday will be close to if not more than $100. So I get to start back at square one just like you my friend.

I will say that I probably need to take a day or 2 or even a week off from playing poker as now every decision I make is in my head and I am second guessing myself with every move I make.

I too will create a thread with daily updates starting on Friday 2/18/11 updating all of you with my progress. I want to do this not to cause attention to myself, but rather to hold myself accountable to proper bankroll management. That includes taking time off when experiencing major downswing.

Yeah it's rough dude. What I look at as key this time around and in all future times when variance hits me is to move down to the appropriate level where we are BR'ed for.

If I have a $750 BR and i'm playing 25NL and I hit a sick string of cards and play an insane amount of hands and somehow my bankroll goes down to under $500 then it's time to grind some 10NL untill I am rolled up again. One of my common mistakes is playing the stakes i'm playing with 18-19 buy-ins after going on a losing streak, before you know it it becomes 15 buy-ins and wow you just $#%^ your roll.

-Phil Ivey27 said:

Yeah it's rough dude. What I look at as key this time around and in all future times when variance hits me is to move down to the appropriate level where we are BR'ed for.

If I have a $750 BR and i'm playing 25NL and I hit a sick string of cards and play an insane amount of hands and somehow my bankroll goes down to under $500 then it's time to grind some 10NL untill I am rolled up again. One of my common mistakes is playing the stakes i'm playing with 18-19 buy-ins after going on a losing streak, before you know it it becomes 15 buy-ins and wow you just $#%^ your roll.

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The worst part about my story is that I was playing .10/.25 short stack tables and moved down to .2/.5 and still went busto. There seems like nothing I could have done except quit playing for a week or two in order to avoid what happened.