MUCKING CARDS

Okay, here's a question about a situation that occurred at a small tournament I was playing in . . . what happened prior to conclusion of the hand is irrelevant for the question I'm going to pose so I'll skip right to it . . . at the River there is a king high straight on the board, Player "A" raises to $4000 Player "B" calls and announces "I... have two pair Kings & Queens" Player "A" mucks her cards and Player "B" rakes in the pot. Neither player seen the straight on the board and it was called by a player not in the hand. The dealer awarded the pot to Player "B" because Player "A" mucked her cards. I believe this call was wrong and the pot should have been split regardless of what Player "A" did because the board played . . . Am I correct or is the Dealer??

doesnt matter what player B announces, as long as he shows his cards and player A mucked without showing, the pot goes to the player who shows the cards faceup. dealer made the right decision.

Yes that is correct.

And also, when a player NOT in the hand announces what is out there, that makes me very pissy.

I have had situations where I fliped over my cards and so did the other person and they thought I won it, so they picked up their cards and throwed them in the muck pile.

Then some numb skull not in the pot pipes up and say's, no man, you won it with (whatever). Grrrrr

I've even had players call out a lesser hand than what they had and took the pot that way.

It is the players responsability to know what they have and what is on the board, not the other players.

Dealers make mistakes sometimes and this is one of those times. If the dealer was paying attention they should have blocked the player from mucking their cards. Once they make it to the muck it is up to the discretion of the house. Cards can be retrieved from the muck if the floor person deems it fair (FAIR being a key point here). The board played so it was pretty obvious to all it should have been a split pot. Small tournament or not the rule of cards hitting the muck is NOT black and white.

This also brings attention to how important using a card protector can be and the responsibility of players at the table to pay attention to their hands.

It is btw the responsibility of ALL players at the table to point out errors if observed.

I tend to disagree here. I think there is a lot to go off of in the deception factor of the game, and also the roles and responsibilities of the dealer. They are a neutral entity. It is their job to deal hole cards, deal community cards, then out of the cards that make it to showdown, they are to decide who wins according to rules.

One thing I hear at poker tables is "It takes two face up cards to win a pot at showdown." Now, this may be a house rule, an actual rule, or something a curious guy made up once in order to get all the information he paid for. If a player doesn't realize he is in a split pot, and he mucks his cards, that is his decision. He knew his hole cards, the board, and what his opponenet had.

It is not the dealer's job to prevent people from making bad plays. How would you feel if you had the KQ, got counterfeitted on the river, then your opponenet foolishly mucked his hand and then the dealer chopped the pot? It is merely the dealer's job to make sure that the best hand at showdown gets the pot. And the hand that's face down in the muck is never best unless it won by default.

While people go to casinos and card rooms for fair, legal, and safe play (as opposed to backs of warehouses and clubs and bars without security, etc), I do not believe that it is fair to protect people from their own mistakes. While yes, the house can dig the cards out of the muck, I believe they should only do it when they have made an error. In my experiences, it has only been in cases where it was the house's fault, and even then I don't think anybody's hand came out of the muck. They just fix the mistake to the best of their ability.

But yes, it depends on where you play and their rules.

Yes, the board played, but an Ace beat the board. The mucked hand could say one of their hole cards, then pick an ace. If the picked ace was in the muck, they effectively cheated the pot (Provided nobody watched their mucked hand, and the named whole card found it's way to an ace). Once a hand is in the muck it loses it's integrity, which is why it's called the muck, and not "the second place you keep your hole cards".

As far as pointing out observed errors, this is a very touchy subject. I believe it applies to house errors only. Not player errors. It's not my job to watch out for your chip stack, except for making it become a part of my chip stack.

Some people will hold a vendetta if you cost them a large pot by pointing something out. If you are not involved in the hand, then it's none of your business. Remember, these are dollars and cents up for stake here, not hershey's kisses and post-it notes. If you say something and somebody who was about to rake a $1200 pot instead doesn't rake the pot, well, you could have just cost him next month's rent (assuming under basic principal that he's not playing with this month's rent because he is a responsible player).

The rules are different wherever you go, however I would be pissed to be in the counterfeited 2-pairs shoes, have my opponent muck the hand, and then not get the entire pot. If he wanted the pot he should have turned his face cards over. He had his chance, he blew it.

Now, from other guy's shoes, my opinion would be the same. "Oh, the board played? I guess I'm dumb for mucking my hand. I'll have to not do that next time."

The house game I play at has on the table, in writing: "Pay attention." It's a basic rule of cards.

Of course, these are all my opinions and come from my experiences and where I play cards. I may be wrong, you may disagree with me, but that's where I stand on the matter at hand.

I was of course speaking of "house" errors, not player errors when speaking of ALL player responsibility.

Most dealers protect their muck until the hand is complete and should be bringing the players cards into it themselves.

For some reason I was picturing a HU situation where both players cards were up. That was not stated so I apologize for my confusing statements.

If the player does not turn them over and announces a fold or pushes them toward the dealer they get mucked. So be it if the player made a mistake. I just don't like the idea that players themselves are throwing them into the muck. It shows a lack of control by the dealer and that is how problems happen.

I have to assume this didn't happen at a casino.

Here are a couple of the rules that would cover this situation. Now I realize that misreading the board is a problem however.....

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.
2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot.
3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum.

Ok so those are the rules applying to the board being read and all but then you have thses rules that would be in place for the player that mucked to NOT win any portion of the pot.

1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.

9. You must declare that you are playing the board before you throw your cards away. Otherwise, you relinquish all claim to the pot. (The rule for tournament play is you must retain your hand and show it if asked, in order to win part of the pot.)

I got to tell ya I know the rules like the back of my hands and I always encounter a situation where a definate rule applies but because of some other occurance it could be interperated different. In this case I would say it's the players responsiblity to read the board or at very least just flip your cards over and if an error is found then your entitled part of the pot. So if I was the dealer or even a floor person I would have ruled the same way as was done because the player mucked their cards they no longer have entitlement to any portion of the pot.

I think Oz will agree with me once he reads the post.

UHHHH ^^^^^ THIS PLEASE READ BELOW

^^^^^BOLD PRINT^^^^^^

The rules you quote, Cooke's Rules?

Okay, finally found my copy of Cooke’s Rules of poker and the answer to my question, although Grossberger pretty much his the nail on the head although I'm not sure who's rules he was quoting. Here goes Cook's Rules on the scenario I brought forth . . .
COOKE’S RULES OF REAL POKER - 11.03 SHOW ALL CARDS
All cards in a player’s hand must be shown face-up on the table to be awarded any part of the pot. Note that an exception to this rule may exist in Texas Hold’em, depending on which rule the house uses relative to playing the board.
COOKE’S RULES OF REAL POKER - 6.05 TEXAS HOLD’EM
When Hold’em is referred to without further qualification, it generally means Texas Hold’em, the most popular and widely spread form of the game. The game is never played for low in public cardrooms and rarely played high-low split. In Texas Hold’em, all the previous rules relating to community card games apply. A player receives exactly tow hole cards on the initial deal to play with the five cards on the board in making his best possible five card hand. A player may use zero, one or tow cards from his hand together with any combination of cards from the board to make his best possible five card hand. If a player uses zero cards from his hand and instead uses all five cards on the board, he is said to be playing the board. A player who wishes to play the board at showdown must declare this intention, and turn his two private hole cards face-up on the table. A player who throws his hand away without showing it forfeits his interest in the pot if the cards hit the muck without being turned over. As on other poker situations, both cards must be shown at the showdown to be awarded a pot or part of a pot. This ensures that a player has the proper number of cards in his hand and that there are no irregularities that would void the hand. It also avoids disputes as to whether a hand is eligible to win the pot and whether a player had in fact folded before the last betting round. (ALTERNATE RULE: A player may discard his hand face down after announcing his intention to play the board. A problem with this rule is that if a player announces his intention softly or forgets to announce it a dispute may arise as to whether he is eligible for a share of the pot.)
Regardless of which rule you use, the player in my initial scenario failed to announce that they were playing the board and the dealer made the right call.
God I hate being wrong . . .

I used Robert's Rules of Poker which I read somewhere is what the WSoP rules are from with the exception of a few modifications

LOL - my reputation as the resident live game rules nit precedes me

What should have happened is that the dealer should've recognised the straight on the board, recognised that Player B was playing the board and then prevented Player A from mucking her hand on the basis that she was at least splitting the pot.

As a famous man called Cletus once said though, should'na but di'nna. So as it happened I can see arguments for a ruling in either direction - Player A mucked her hand in error and it's clear she's entitled to at least half the pot since Player B is playing the board. But at the same time it was her mistake, nobody lied about the strength of their hand to make her fold* and the rules clearly say you need to show your cards to claim any part of the pot when you're playing the board.

Personally I'd just chop the pot. Player A is entitled to at least half of it whatever her cards were. Though there's a strong case to be made too that players this stupid deserve whatever happens to them.



* I'm assuming saying "I've got two pair" when there's a straight on the board really wasn't an angle shoot. If it was AND it worked, then... well I guess we've just gotta say kudos sir, you really did find a sucker this time.

Once you muck your hand, your forfeit it. The player should of have paid attention.

Ivey mucked a winning flush in the WSOP but kept quiet because he knew it was gone.

Two Rules:

1. Never muck your hand until you doublecheck the board.
2. If you're not in the hand, SHUT YOUR MOUTH.

Wrong. Pretty much every set of rules in common use in poker allow for the hand to be retrieved from the muck if the cards can be clearly, positively identified and it's in the interest of fairness. The dealer or floor person judges what's fair and when to apply the rule.

That's not to say it applies in this case - it's usually reserved for angle shooting cases. But it can be done.

FWIW Ivey claims he didn't say anything because he didn't know that he mucked a flush.

And your second rule is just plain wrong, as Grossberger has pointed out. If you see a mistake in progress, point it out. Someone might return the favour for you one day.

I have seen this before if you muck your hand your out. For example Phil ivey in the WSOP 09 had a flush and completely misread his hand down in the final 27 i think check it out. If he realized after mucking he couldnt get it back. And announcing a hand well thats just because Player B misread the board and thought they had the best hand with 2 pair which clearly beat A maybed they just need to open there eyes :P

Were i play if player b annoced two pair or whatever the dealer would have pushed the board up an said straight to the king.He would not have said no you have a straight not two pair in my humble opinon not his place he annonced the winning hand an if player a is to stupid to realize it to bad.An as of the other player keep you f***ing mouth shut it's nothing to you.

I'm assuming everyone that's saying "STFU and let the mistake happen" has never, ever made a mistake in their jobs, always caps their cards, never string bets, never acts out of turn and, most importantly, wouldn't bat an eyelid if a pot was awarded to their opponent in error and another player who could've spoken up chose not to?

In most cases yes however if you muck because of mis information and your cards can be clearly identified then they can be retrieved. Example player a raises on the river and player b calls player a says flush and player b mucks and then player a flips over his cards and doesn't have the flush then thats mis information that caused player b to muck.

In this case player a made a declaration on their hand but the board was the best hand and the dealer should have caught this, but if player b had turned up their cards and then it was discovered that the board plays then the pot could be split.

I didn't say i never make any mistakes.As for the player keeping his mouth closed in the hand (that he or she is not in is a must).That has cost me alot of money-nuts on the board usally A-10 st8 player checks to me i push the player stares at the board sighs an starts to through the hand away because he has no idea what the hell he is doing an player not in the hand opens his,her dumb ass mouth.For as letting the mistake happen i said the dealer would push the flop up an declare a straight on the board what player b was playing instead of saying no you have a straight not two pair because thats not his job.

Are you saying someone tells the player to turn their hand up??? if so then that is not allowed and should be told to the floor. But if the player has turned up their hand and a mistake is about to happen as to awarding the pot to the wrong person this should be brought up by anyone that sees the mistake.

I siad i pushed an the player is about to muck hence not call my bet an throw it away.Then the player not in the hand says yall are both playing the board.I've played alot of morons an this situation by it self as cost me alot of money.So i'm saying player not in the hand keep your mouth shut.

Yeah OK, that's bad. But it's not what we're talking about either. If a mistake is going to happen in a hand that's reached showdown, then players that weren't in the hand really ought to speak up. Situation in the OP falls into the latter category.

In the WSOP the dealer reached over to that one chick's cards when she was already all in and they ruled her cards mucked. If that wasn't a time for fairness I don't know what is.



He did a doubletake after he did it- I think he realized it a little too late.



I stand by my rule. Keep your mouth shut. If I lose a hand because I muck my hand (and I HAVE before), so be it. If I lose a pot because someone chimes in when something like this happens I'd be pissed. Keep it to yourself.

Your talking about an uncalled pot, in which case the bloke who opened their mouth deserves it he he gets a hiding, but Oz and Grossberger are talking about a called pot or a pot that was checked to the river.

Ok in a called pot i still don't understand why should the dealer or players have to tell the guy to turn up is hand.If the player loses money for that simple mistake then it's a mistake that will not happen again(leason learned).Other players should still keep there mouth shut an like i said before when the player announces two pair all the dealer should do is say king high straight an push the board up.Thats what they do in my casnio that i play an i don't understand how it's the dealers job to teach the game to the newbie just correctly announce the winning hand.

1 - Absolutely that was a time for fairness, and that's why the floor was called over. The problem there was that the cards couldn't be positively identified - when the floor looked at them they weren't the cards the player claimed they should have been. At that point there's really nothing that can be done, fair or otherwise.

2 - Zorba has it. What Grossberger and I are saying is that once a hand has gone to showdown and the cards have been turned over, if a mistake is about to happen you're obliged to say something.

If the hand hasn't gone to showdown, or it has, one player has shown their hand and the other just mucks then absolutely keep your mouth shut because you can't know there's a mistake in progress.

Note too that OP is talking about a tournament, not a cash game. Tournament rules typically require all hands to be turned face up at showdown which is one of the main reasons I'd have wanted to prevent Player A from mucking her cards - they're supposed to be turned over anyway and Player B is playing the board. Cash games don't usually have that rule and the situation would be treated differently.

I can't believe there is so much debate over this - and I don't want to be rude in any way but in EVERY casino I have played at, if you muck, the hand is dead, plain and simple. Now I have seen people agree to chop b/c the opponent was a nice person and let them - and the dealer & floor manager agreed as well - but that only happened because the person who would have won the hand b/c the other mucked was a nice old man, not there to make money.

And for the 2 cards up rule, that generally is enforced, depending on the table & players. In the vast majority of cases if a player only shows one card and has the winning hand with just the one card, the losing player usually mucks and that's why the player who only showed one card wins - not necessarily b/c he had the best hand (although he did) but b/c his opponent mucked.

Could not agree more !!!!!!

This post and peoples answers is why I read the blog from the dealer, he says that when it is mucked it is mucked. You lost. Casinos have a strict set of rules and it is wise to know these before hand.

Thats not what we are saying no player or dealer should TELL a player to turn their hand up that is against the rules. The OP's situation is that a player miscalled their hand saying they had 2 pair and the other player could not beat 2 pair however the board had a straight. And was not pointed out until the player mucked due to misinformation. thats where this rule comes into play.
2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

Again see above as to the misinformation

See above.^^

The problem with this is it falls in the gray area of the rules.One player mucks due to misinformation and no one in the game realized the board was a straight until the player had mucked.

I've pointed out dealer errors before, although I wasn't involved in the hand... two guys were heads up, one had AJ the other had AT I think the board was A KK Q 5 or something like that... the guy with AT thought he lost, the dealer seemed to think the same, even though both hands were turned face up the dealer flipped the AT hand over and started to push the pot toward mister AJ til I said "uhhh, that's a split pot if I'm not mistaken neither of their kickers play" and then another guy piped up and agreed... much to the delight of mister AT who didn't even realize.

^^^^ ABSOLUTLY CORRECT IN DOING SO^^^^^

Some poker rules say that players who are not in the hand are not allowed to discuss the hand. Would that also include pointing out winners who think they are losing?

With no live experience, but just from reading this thread I would always point out such a thing; it's a win-win situation, you will tilt one person and another may be grateful to you.

Dealer called it right in my book.