Muck question

Hi,
Found this site while trying to find the answer to what happened at our home game this week
Me and another guy are in the pot ,, I bet on the river , He called ,, we both showed both cards ,I had two pair he declared his hand as one pair ,,, I rake the pot , the community cards are turned over into the muck ,, then some other guy at the table said ,, I think he had the nine for a straight ,, he then proceeds to turn the cards back over to show the straight.. he was then awarded the pot ,,, am I on crack to think how wrong this is?? PLUS just last week ,, Im the dealer ,, I got ducks ,, I go all in and the SB called and the BB folded ,, I didnt see SB call , prob the crack ,,,, So I thought everyone folded I throw my cards right on top and start to rake ,,Ya I know , pay attention but I said I got ducks right here ,, I turned them right back over ,,, and My hand was declared dead ,, Im fine with that ,, I understand when you muck your cards they are dead ,, even though after reading the real rules I should have been able to ,, But if thats the house rule thats the house rule ,,, But to turn over my cards his card AND the community cards to declare a winner? seems like different rules for different people but then again there is always the possibility of me being on crack ,, Thanks in advance for any comments

First of all, lay off the crack.

And yes, if a hand is thrown into the muck, showdown or not, it is dead and the remaining live hand will be awarded the pot.

So , once those community cards are turned over is there any way they can be turned back up?

Nope, don't think so. If your opponent mucks his hand, you rake the pot and the board is mucked pending the shuffle, the hand is over.

Thanks BobaChicken..

You're welcome.

1. Poker, at least it's not crack.
2. Sounds like a case of taking "cards speak" to a new level. You were right.
3. Your mistake, his pot.
4. Welcome!

ever heard of a case of turning back over the community cards after they have even been mucked ...and I had the two pair ,,, the pot was redistributed to the other guy ,,, ,,,Not a big difference tween crack and poker anyway lol ..

Proper dealers at home-games are the key.

Umm, personally, I think this is actually a tough one to call at a home-game level.

I think most players are fine with rules like if a hand is mucked, it's dead and the hand is over (regardless of the situation). However, when a showdown has happened and it's the community cards that have been turned over, it's a little trickier. The reason is, that it should really be the dealer who awards the pot.

Most home-games don't really abide by proper dealer conventions, but it can actually stop stuff like this from happening. If it's (only ever) the dealer of the hand who takes responsibility for checking who's won, declaring the hands, pushing the chips to the winner and regrouping the cards, then this kind of stuff will happen far less often.

It's not that the dealer can't make an error, but just that it becomes clear that it's everyone in the hand's responsibility to call the dealer on any error straight away, or else abide by their award. People who were not in the hand have no say.

I think the (first) situation you described probably played out how it would in most home-games that don't have a proper structure in place.

It might seem stuffy to stipulate that only the dealer can touch the chips and award pots in a home-game scenario, but I think it's a good rule to have in place and becomes routine pretty quickly. Plus, it's good practice for proper dealing in cardroom/casino play.

Ps. what's with all the commas, is that the crack too?

To a certain extent it's your own fault in the second hand for not paying attention, but your opponent did something at least as stupid by throwing away a made straight in the first hand. I think if you're going to rule the hand live in the first example you have to either rule the second hand live as well or let you take your bet back. Ruling your hand dead but your bet live is pretty brutal.

For what it's worth a hand isn't necessarily dead and irretrievable when it hits the muck. From Robert's Rules Section 3 - General Poker Rules - Dead Hands:

Whether that extends to retrieving the community cards from the muck as well is an interesting question - the rules don't specifically allow it but I don't see why it couldn't be done as long as the cards are still clearly identifiable and it's in the best interests of the game.

So if the people you're playing with allowed all the cards to be retrieved in the first hand but won't let you turn your hand back up in the second one I think it's time to find a new home game.

Well the fact that you went all in with those ducks speaks volumes about your intent to go to showdown on that hand (in fact there could be no other intent) so based on that (in a home game) I'd vote to let the hand go to showdown. In casino - you are pretty much screwed.
But I just wish I could listen in when you go back and explain your point and the fact that you are backed up by BobaChicken!

Seems obvious enough, however, if a home game rules can vary. I would definitely ask for clarification on muck policy before the game starts next time.

Thanks everyone for the input ,,,, those were my points when the situation happened , and Ive talked to others at the table that would totally agree that If it was me that wanted to turn community cards back over the rule would now be ,, community cards flipped dead hand ,, like it should have been ,, but owell ,, ,,, not sure of the commas lol ,, always done it on forums to break up my thoughts ,,, and Ive also ,, Pretty sure cracks cheaper ,,,,

viggs05 said:

Thanks everyone for the input ,,,, those were my points when the situation happened , and Ive talked to others at the table that would totally agree that If it was me that wanted to turn community cards back over the rule would now be ,, community cards flipped dead hand ,, like it should have been ,, but owell ,, ,,, not sure of the commas lol ,, always done it on forums to break up my thoughts ,,, and Ive also ,, Pretty sure cracks cheaper ,,,,

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Periods work too.

LarryT503 said:

Seems obvious enough, however, if a home game rules can vary. I would definitely ask for clarification on muck policy before the game starts next time.

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I agree with Larry. Home games can have different rules than casinos. It all depends on the players playing what the rules should be. It's best to agree on the rules before the game starts.

Those are both some tough situations for a home game. In the first case, our home game probably would have reversed it if all the cards were retrievable and all agree that all cards are the correct cards. High hand wins even if mis-read. But if cards got too mixed up, 2 pair hand wins.

Same in the second hand, if cards retrievable, play the hand, if mixed up, lesson learned and 2's mucked.

Good question and thoughts here

yea, find out the 'house" rules,,,to me from what I heard if cards are mucked they are dead. Hence card protector, if muck cards hit unprotected hole cards, your cards are dead.

Cards speak = anyone at table can declare a mistake by the dealer once the cards are turned over.

Cards mucked = it's kind of a tricky thing generally up to the discretion of the floor.

Thanks for all the responses,

wagon596 said:

yea, find out the 'house" rules,,,to me from what I heard if cards are mucked they are dead. Hence card protector, if muck cards hit unprotected hole cards, your cards are dead.

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...unless they're readily identifiable and un-mucking them is in the best interests of the game. See above.

Dead hand period

lol.... your house your rules During home game we play with friends if you want to play with rules then then maybe that should be put out there before the games start

trucker103 said:

Dead hand period

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Again, if the cards are readily identifiable and unmucking them is in the best interests of the game then they can be retrieved. See above. Period.

Poker crack,,,, It's much healthier than smoking crack,,, and you don't have to use as many commas...