Moving up from 200nl to 400nl ?

Only played a little less than 30k hands so far since moving up from 100nl to 200nl, but i've pretty much crushed it: I'm running at about 5BB/100. Obviously been running a bit hot, but there's no doubt i have a pretty decent edge there.

Now I got my BR up to about 30 buy-ins for 400nl, i got to start considering moving up again. My questions for those of you who know the level are

1. how much harder is 400nl ?
2. is 30 buy-ins enough to take shots there?
3. is 30k hands enough at a given level to consider moving up again?
4. considering i've played FR exclusively at 200nl, should i first consider playing 200nl 6max for a while since less and less of the action is at FR as we move up?

Don't expect a flood of answers here Belgo .

Anyways well done m8, you're playing well. I'll provide you with my answers even though I haven't played full stacked at 400nl!

1. I think most players have said in the past that it's from 200nl that things get a bit more trickier. Having said that, there still should be enough out there for you to profit from. You have a distinct edge over most regs through your style if I'm not mistaken (ie mega nsd winnings) so you should be fine.

2. 30 buy ins is deffo enough to take a shot, as long as you adhere to a strict move down policy.

3. 30k hands is probably not enough to judge whether you actually winning at a particular level, but its certainly a good indicator.

4. I would deffo try 200nl 6m before you jump in to 400nl 6m. I dunno I find the game dynamic totally different between fr/6mx and I think you may need to get a feel again before you move up to 400nl 6mx. Just my opinion.

fwiw, (i'm a lil drunk)

1. i remember 400nl being very beatable (full ring) and i didnt run nearly as horrible at it

2. yes

3. don't worry about silly numbers, you beat that level, now try beating this one! you can do it, and if you don't think you can, there are people (on this site) taht you can talk to that have exp playing there!

4. no, because 6max is dry as an old lady's special hole and you can def. beat the higher level of full ring

and i say this having played like 90-100k hands of full ring at 2/4!!!!!!!!

one more thing: belgo, if you want to beat 2/4 full ring, please PM me and i'll set up some skype/sweat with you and make sure i give you a lot of input on what you're doing

Hey Belgo, out of curiousity, what your stats at 200nl fr. vpip/pfr/af cb%, fcb%, 3bet% f3b%, att to steal. K thx!

Yeah, most of my winnings are nsd. Not sure it's because i beat the regs of if it's because i exploit the fishes better, though.

btw, i finally bought a microphone so i will probably try to make a vid one of these days to show you how it's done...

did you go in the old lady's special hole yourself?

thxs for the offer. Never been sweated before...

don't have access to that here at work. Something like 15/13/3 i guess? will post tonight.

i'm serious PM me tomorrow early on my time and we'll set somethin kool up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 :icon_s ant

Well done mate, great achievement in such a short time frame.

I am really not one to talk here, I think I've played nl$400 about ten times in my life. Its much more of a mental challenge if I can remember correctly, its was a level where I could'nt distance myself from the money.

I remember a few months back you felt that my 35 buyin level up was a little aggressive ?

lol yeah. But the thing is, i've also cashed out about $4k, so i would have about 40 buy-ins without those cashouts. That helps with the mental part of it, i think.

Also, i got a much bigger edge at 100 and 200nl than i did at lower levels, and the bigger your edge, the more aggressive you can be with BRM, right?

when is "early on your time" ?

Yes take a shot. You may not be a 5 PTBB/100 winner at 200nl but winning at 5 over that sample at least sorta shows that you're a winner at it and gives you confidence if nothing else. You're definitely good enough to beat it, so if you can handle a downswing (say you lost 2k in a day would you be ok and handle it fine and just move back down and not tilt?) then I say do it. Also especially since not as many 400nl FR tables you could probably start off mixing 200nl and 400nl so you can table select (and not play shortstackers at either limit) and I'd consider getting some money on Stars if you do start playing it full-time so you can mix the two.

On an unrelated note, I need Stars money for FTP, pm me if interested .

yeah, i'll probably start by mixing a few good 400nl tables with my 200nl ones, and probably start by doing that on weekends.

Also, i mostly don't play shortstackers at 200nl anymore. Unless I see a super good table open, I mostly start deep tables, so the SS can't sit with me... unless you consider our friend Vitaly a deep shortstacker?

About mixing with PS, don't you feel that 200nl on tilt is much softer than 200nl on stars? I have that feeling, but i really don't have enough 200nl hands at PS to make it more than a feeling. Do you notice a difference between sites at 400nl?

Since I've only played 400NL at Party (and I've come to understand that it's a bit tougher there than on Stars), my input is a bit colored by that, but: I think you'll find that the big difference comes not first and foremost from fish getting tougher (they don't) or even more rare; the thing that's tougher is the other regs. You're no longer competing with regs that beat 100NL, you're now competing with regs that beat 200NL. The difference is very noticeable; specifically I think you have to get used to the idea of not having much of (if any) edge on them preflop and metagame and mixing up lines start to matter a lot. At 200NL, you can count on all regs to use HEM/PT, at 400 I think you can count on all regs writing notes on what you're doing.

I talked a lot about this with Alan when I moved up and he warned about over-compensating. I think that's a real risk. You know that your opponents are better, and so you might start seeing "bluffs" everywhere you look, assuming that they're 3-betting you light all the time and try to adjust by 4-betting light or whatever. But in regards to that, I'll repeat that you won't (can't) really have a preflop edge on many of the decent regs because they've done most of the same work you have and they know that you know that they know etc. Trying to outplay good regs preflop is just an expensive exercise in paying rake.

Moving up is never a problem as long as you don't psychologically marry the new level and have no qualms about moving down again if the shot doesn't work out. If I were you I'd set aside 10 buy-ins for 400NL and let it ride. If it works out; great - if it doesn't, you'll still have an $8k roll for 200NL.

30k hands is a decent but not great sample. You can certainly run hot or cold for 30k hands (I certainly hope so; I'm in a 30k hand break-even stretch currently).

that's ok. at 200nl, most of my edge is postflop anyway.

i'd most lileky move down before that, i guess.

yeah, but i only have about 60k hands per level at all the other levels i played from 25nl up, so i guess i don't have a great sample on any of them anyway...

Ok so you guys know I am not anywhere near 200 or 400nl but I do watch alot of DC vids and like to watch mid stakes 400/600nl often and I also watch it just for fun on pokerstars (yes I am that sad)

I really think Nolans moving on up series is the nutz on DC so for my input I will give you a summary of his powerpoint slides so that you can get abit of info off somebody who has beat it and higher.

400nl The Middle Stake

He firstly says the is first major stepping stone as its the jump where the casual cash players drop out and its a stake where professionals start playing.
Here are the bullet points off his slides.

• Bluffing becomes more effective (some players play with scared money)
• Button on blind aggression maximised
• Regs start stacking off lighter, especially in late position raise battles
• Begin to run into regs dropping down for various reasons, from as high as 10/20. So make sure your aware of these higher stakes pros

He then goes on to play some 400nl, Just to highlight some good regs for you if you didnt know. On pokerstars btw dont know if they would table select from both FTP + stars. However just some information you may want idk.

xxXWobbly_auXxx - Solid reg, plays all the time, very aggro, 5/10 reg aparrently.
xxXgterodactyl6xxX - I think thats what it says the resolution is poor, but hes again a 5/10 reg, solid not as aggro but picks spots very well. He says maybe one of the best players at 5/10.
xxXgl79Xxx - Plays whatever from 2/4 to 5/10 depends what tables are open. Bit of a nit.
xxXyaomingmingxxX - same as gl79 an ok reg plays through to 5/10

He stats alot of players are comfy with 2/4 and play alot higher in general. However there are some regs who play 1/2 + 2/4 only.

just some stuff for you belgo I can watch some more 400nl vids for you and summarise them if you want maybe some on FTP to get some regs there but just a little insight from a high stakes pro.

Hope it helps
Jake

Well when I accidentally clicked on a 400nl table instead of the 200nl table with a similar name I got KK and QQ in my one orbit and took down a couple 3bet pots. So, thats one way to do it.

On a serious note I dont play FR or 400nl but your postflop game seems really solid and everything i have heard regardless of stakes is to not over adjust. Im sure you can beat the game, and if you run bad for a bit you will know to move down. Good luck.

That, pretty much.

I've found that 400nl (6max) is where you start to run into real pros. People like nanonoko on pokerstars play seemingly perfect poker and win at insane winrates for 50k+ hands per month and make most people's yearly income in a month. Then again you can always just table select and avoid the tougher regs, or at least play on their left.

Keep in mind this is the level where, if solid regs start running bad (Alan aka Dixon01 comes to mind) at 3/6 through 10/20, they drop down to 400nl. Also tons of video coaches make videos at these stakes; just know who they are and avoid them.

If you're confident and have a little padding there's nothing wrong with taking a shot. Don't overcompensate like FP said, and just play your game and you'll be fine.

You don't even have to make a 'full' move. Play with two 400nl tables and four 200nl, or however many you play.

gl, you'll be fine as long as you keep your confidence

here it is

Attached Images

200nlstats.jpg (27.3 KB, 32 views)

And here's the famous SD / NSD graph. SD are a bit high because i've running good. NSD line is standard for me.

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200nlgraph.jpg (72.9 KB, 33 views)

hey, i would def take a shot :P

do you play full ring or 6max? just curious

Man all this talk of moving up makes me want to do it. Too bad i am doomed to be forever a 100NL reg.

You guys and your lofty aspirations. If I could make $5-$10k a month playing 100NL, I would stick with that. I'm here to make profit, not beat pros.

judging from your last blog update that doesnt seem to bad

oh and go Belgo!

well 1/2 6max+ is drier than cartman's balls, and 1/2 FR is just a nitfest

Might as well, but be careful to move down quickly if you start getting owned (fps when facing better regs or whatever who aren't as weak tight and will call you down lighter...i have no doubt you have the potential to beat nl400 but moving up can be tough) or running bad. You can lose quite a bit of money at nl400 and it unbalances your total winnings if you play up stakes while running bad. Just saying this from personal experience, as when i moved up to nl400 (only like 5k hands in the end) i ran so terrible and frankly it ****ed over that month coz i had won at a good rate at nl200 but was getting raped at nl400 (although the players weren't better at all, but this is HU). Running bad + playing a little bad coz running bad can definitely lead to $1/hand losses at nl400 (tho prob not in FR) which isnt' good when your profit is from nl200.

But i think you should go for it.

FP I disagree for FR. The regs don't get that much better imo, just a lot less fish and it's the better regs. They still have leaks and if you study them you can exploit them pretty bad. If you start playing 400nl and I finally move up again then you should definitely actually get on aim more and we can discuss regs and stuff because as I said most are extremely exploitable, they still have some of the same leaks as 1/2 regs which mostly stems from the fact that they play a lot of tables and don't adjust very well.

In fact I think it's sometimes easier to exploit those guys. Look for dry boards and look to raise a ton of cbets. You want to do it to the point where you profit but they don't notice you're doing it light enough to adjust. Basically when I first moved up the very first time I noticed that a lot of the times they were using some of the exact same lines I did at 1/2 and I was paying them off just like all the fishies did to me at 1/2. Then I realized that if they're making the same moves as me I have an insight over the logic behind the moves, when they're likely to make them, and thus how to exploit/counter them. It's not easy, but since there are less regs it is a lot easier to study them and really understand how they play and I can guarantee you they're not going into that much detail on you. Sure they may note that you double barrelled a scare card once or that you backraised AK to a UTG raise, button squeeze UTG fold but I highly doubt anyone else was studying the play of other regs as much as I was and despite the small sample I think it paid off.

Zach,

Yeah, I should have been more specific about my experience: I don't play full ring at all. Also, to clarify, I wasn't saying that regs at (Party) 400 (6-max) aren't exploitable - just that most of them have their preflop game down pat. It's impossible to play unexploitably preflop (if anyone disagrees with this I'll be happy to explain why I think so), but the difference, in my experience, between the good regs at 200 and the good regs at 400 (Party 6-max) is that the latter are much quicker at noticing when you're exploiting them. They know what their "leaks" are preflop, and they'll counter quickly when they know that you know. Trying to outlevel them preflop is basically an exercise in futility.

The keyword being "preflop." Of course regs can be outplayed postflop; some of them have some glaring holes in their postflop games - don't we all? - but I don't find many of them that I can just destroy by 3-betting them light (nits) or tightening up (LAGs) like I generally can at the lower stakes.

+1 lol

However I do think this will have a knock on effect and provide some healthy competition between you midstakes guys. It will want you guys to move up if you see others do well.
Im looking forward to this and think this could be the point where CC develops a few more midstakes SOLID regs.