LIVE RULES/ETIQUETTE QUESTION.

Let me throw this out there and get some thoughts. At a live game at the legion tonight. Tight Tight players... I limp three behind the BB for 600 with ak off.. Next player raises to four k... Player next smooth calls and so do I... Flop is K52 with two diamonds.. Original raiser checks. Next player goes all in and I go into the tank. While i got my head down thinking about what to do, the original raiser picks up his hand and shows the entire half of the table including the all in....He then says.. "Pffff what a flop". At this point I assume his hand is dead and I make the call.... As soon as I do the original raises pushes all in as well. I had about 11k left so I call time and ask for someone to make a ruling because the only reason I call is because I think his hand is dead... They say no... If his hands not in the muck its still live... So ok i decide to lay it down thinking I just got played like a god damn fiddle... Original raiser shows pp of kings and guy all in rolls over 24 diamonds.. Diamond hits river and two four wins..


My problem is I think his hand is dead because even if his hand isnt in the muck it seems to me that hes still acting out of turn and thus inciting action from me..

What do you guys think.. Hopefully I didnt ramble too much and confuse you guys just tried to put out all the details..

Thanks again

Norm

What does Roberts Rules of Poker say?

Nothing in the rules about him doing what he did. His hand wasn't mucked. He played you.

Ok thanks. If he got me and he can do that then I simply say Well done and he deserved to win. Iam absolutely not upset was just coming to you guys for clarification is all.

Here's a link for the rules. http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/chapter3.php

Rules: Yeah, what they said. ^^^

Etiquette: That's a pretty dick thing to do in the middle of a hand with someone all-in and you trying to think.

Ok thanks Sticker. Thats why i put rules/etiquette in the title.. I thought it was shady but didnt want to come right out and say it but at the same time poker is poker and if he didnt break the rules then he was on the right track to take down a monster pot. Neone notice he lost to the 24 flush? Karmas a bitch...


My point I guess is if he didnt break the rules fine but thats like me slowrolling quads in a friendly game.. I mean right? Its a etiquette thing..

All the same... My ass got skooled and ill bust there ass for another 300 tomorrow night in the cash game... Min/Max at beginning of cash game is $40 and last two fridays walked with over $300, so in the end theyll still be buying my newborns pampers lmfao.. Do you all notice the calm Norm as Iam trying to put a positive spin on something for once?

I thought for shure that if he was showing his cards to the table after the flop with other players still in the hand that there would be some kind of ruling about it.
Doesn't seem like they should be able to show there cards to anyone while the hand is still in play.

dont limp preflop imo

I guess because the players he showed had no more decisions to make in the hand it was allowed. Like on that video of PH folding queens on PAD he showed Mike his hand, that seemed inappropriate too with two players still in the hand.

Dont think the limp was bad because like i said the table was tighter than chit. Even if i raise iam getting called and not raised.. Situation remians the same after the flop. But in the end i know what ur saying..

I think it most places, what he did would be ok and his hand would be still live, but every casino has their own set of rules when it comes to the little nuances.

I know of one casino where if you even talk about what you have in your hand, it's considered dead. Then at another casino, yuo can talk, even show everybody you're hand and it's still live...heck they even let you pull back money you've bet past the line if you act out of turn...

I guess the lesson to be learned is to either become apprised of the house rules at whatever casino you're playing at...or ask for a ruling BEFORE you act!

I believe that his actions were rude and inconsiderate...but what he did was perfectly legal...if he doesn't muck, the cards are still live.

I have seen a lot of poker players who will say things and do things to get you to think that they have the best hand or even the worst hand. The classic line I've heard a lot is "Trust me, you didn't want to call."

Sometimes, they will be right. Other times, this can be a sign of weakness...the player may be trying to convince you that they have you beat, when in reality they have squat.

Depending on the amount and my position, I would have to make a judgement call when people say things like that.

So yeah....it is rude, it is inconsiderate, but you have to think....if they were in a pro tourney, would they have the guts making those comments to the other players? There is no rule against it...

i've never heard of such a thing. 1st if the cards leave the table there dead. 2nd rule is show one show all. i've heard of people letting railers view thier cards but thay cant leave the table. and definately not other players. next time something your not sure of ask the dealer if he does know ask for the floor.

http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/chapter1.php

found this under proper bahavior


Revealing the contents of a live hand in a multihanded pot before the betting is complete. Do not divulge the contents of a hand during a deal even to someone not in the pot, so you do not leave any possibility of the information being transmitted to an active player.

I really dont know what the ruling is on this but I see some of the other guys have siad it is within the rules. Even if it is it is still a rotten way to play the game. Where I come from this sort of thing would be dealt with by non law abiding means. It is a brave man who would try this stunt.

Am I missing something here. One guy touched on it. The biggest thing here is he flopped a set right? Then showed the set. Show one show all should be the questionable thing here. Not rather showing his cards is legal or not. This is a retarded move. Now if there is something I am not getting here than ok. He should have to show everyone.

Were you able to see the cards he showed?

No i didnt see his cards like i said i was in the tank thinking about to call the all in shove and he was behind me still left to act... He showed to the guy that was all in as well as the other half of the table

You should have asked to see the cards. Or the other people at the table could have said something. I see this was more of a friendly game then at a casino. No doubt if it was at a casino it would have been show one show all.

It helps to know the rules at the place you're playing because it is different everywhere it also helps to raise AK

His hand was definitely still live - there are pretty much no circumstances short of actually pitching the cards into the muck that will "kill" a player's hand so never assume that's the case.

The player who showed his cards could (and probably should) have been given a penalty, but they don't take effect or even get dished out until the hand is over. He never acted out of turn, BTW.

first of all i would of taken his words to me a big draw or trips

secondly i always thought if you show your cards to a player at the table you had to let everyone see them...

would you have called? his play cost him your 11k in chips..

Darn right it cost me chips. Thats why iam a member here. So when i got a question I can ask. Ive been playing live for years and never got housed so bad on a dirty trick... But like i said thats poker baby... Grimy play but if he didnt break rules then money is money son lol


To your point of takins his words to big draw or trips.. Never seen this done EVER. Slick tricks work sometimes.. Noone gave me no love for saving chips when i realized I got dooped.. Lasted for a while longer at least... That poker

When I'm playing live I don't even move until I see chips or cards out. I sit there like a rock and wait about 5 seconds even if I'm folding in case anything weird happens like that. Tough break.

My original comment after I realized he didnt break the rules..

This is what CC all about. This isnt a critique thread. Its a etiquette/rules thread. Already been clarified..

That's the thing though - he did break the rules. You were right about that all along. You were just wrong about the consequences of him doing that.

Exactly what I was thinking. I'm not a rule expert but couldn't you have the dealer show all hands at that point since everyone at the table had access to information about a live hand (similar to an exposed card)? If not, would it be illegal to ask other players at the table what he showed?

If you want to see someone showing their cards during a tourney, check out scotty nguyen at last years HORSE 50,000 event at WSOP

"Show one show all" is a rule found much more commonly in bar games or home games than it is in a casino.

The important thing to remember in this hand though (and I'm pretty sure this is something the floor would take into consideration) is that there's only one other live hand in the game at this stage - the OP's. And OP didn't see the cards.

So while the player has done something wrong in showing others his hand, he hasn't actually affected the action in the hand yet. Maybe he's given away some extra information in the reactions of the players he's shown. But he hasn't directly affected the action.

It certainly wouldn't be against the rules for the OP to ask the other players what the cards they saw were. Whether it's kosher for those players to give an answer (accurate or otherwise) is a completely different matter. FWIW if I were the dealer, I'd be asking them not to answer. Especially since there's an innocent third party poker (the player who's all in) involved as well.

to ride on this thread, i have a question of my own about live etiquette.

i was playing live at crown casino, and raised utg. everyone folded, or so i thought, and as the blinds folded, i pushed my cards towards the muck. note, it was still some distance from the muck, literally speaking. the player beside me immediately pointed to me that the button had called my raise, and i instantly dragged my cards back. i was berated loudly by the dealer, saying that she should muck my cards. though i apologised, she still shot me dirty looks during the hand.

i took the pot down though, with a bet on the flop and turn.

so my question is. with the muck rule as follows: cards that touch the muck are declared dead. what about cards that are discarded accidentally like in my situation but have yet to literally HIT the muck, and are taken back by the player before the dealer can drag them into the muck. are they still considered to be 'live'?

Since you were allowed to continue with the hand (dirty looks aside) I guess the answer is yes, they're still live.

FWIW I really can't see what the dealer's problem was here - sounds like it was a one-off honest mistake. If you were doing it repeatedly as an angle shoot or something then maybe there's a problem, but once when you thought everyone had folded? Don't see what the problem was.

I think cards are declared "mucked" when player releases his cards. Remember the situation with the chips on WSOP 2008 , there was a similar situation when a guy pushed 1M in chips, then he took 'em back and bet like 350K. He haven't released the chips, so that was good play, thought.