live poker

first time playing live poker in a casino, i played 2/4 limit and doubled up flopping a straight pretty stoked next hand i get dealt 33, limp mid pos, get raised and call, 4 players are in and i dont hit and am facing a bet so i ask the dealer the size of the pot( usually i only play nl 99% the time but im out of a job and have only ever played online and home game tourneys with of course the weakest fields ever so i cant really afford to lose 100 dollars which is the min buyin for a nl table at lowest stakes and i play 5cnl mostly sometimes 10cnl). Anyway after asking the dealer the size of the pot he gives me slight attitude basically in disbelief that i would ask such a question and says its 2 dollars to u what does it matter. and i folded and left before seeing another hand and said "ok, if u can't tell me the size of the pot what would i play for, limit hold em is a game about pot odds before anything else"(got laughed at and wish i could have a giant bankroll with an exuctive position in work field like the idiots at the table). Has anyone else ever dealt with that, im pretty sure i have the right to know the size of the pot, i figure that is the dealers job to manage the table and answer questions asked, how lazy can u be not to count the pot. what a horrible dealer right, like really he works for tips for crying out loud, if that were my job i'd be all over that. how the hell am i supposed to count the pot if its a scattered mess, even when im in dealer position in a home game i manage the pot like a boss, if u cant count the pot when im dealer u shouldnt play poker. And if you tell me it's the job of the poker player to know the size of the pot then why do i always hear people on television asking the same question i did.

You might be interested in this thread:

Recent poker hand controversy

lol another online player who has no idea on the rules/etiquette of poker and acts indignant.

The dealer is not allowed to tell you the size of the pot, ever, nor can he tell you who bet, only how much the bet is to you. The exception to this rule is in pot limit. It's your job to be observant.

If it was supposed to be easy to estimate the size of the pot at all times, dealers wouldn't mash up the stacks of chips as they enter the pot. You may ask the dealer to spread the pot to get a better idea of its size.

Please produce a clip where a pro player on TV asks the size of the pot.

Interested to see what Oz has to say here. I am not experienced live, but it sure seems to me his "Its 2$ to you" comment is out of order.

Read Baudubs post, and I guess I dont understand live play. I thought it was a dealers thing to tell players how many chips are in play.

I do know that any serious live player should always know the size of the pot, so not knowing and letting on is giving info that you are not experienced at live play.

The dealer sounded a bit rude to me, but truth is if your playing 2/4 limit, your just gonna drive your self crazy worrying about pot odds at this level as most players here are recreeational, and/or new and not taking it that serious. I would suggest just paying attention to what is bet by each player and this should give you a reasonably accurate pot size to calculate odds. It may take some getting used to, but Im sure you can do it. Sorry you had a bad experience for your first live poker experience, but dont let it piss you off too much. The more you go, the more you will get used to it, and probably even find that you enjoy it.

Asking the dealer for information other than what the action to you is, is a violation of OPTAH (one player to a hand). The dealer may not tell you who raised or if someone just lost a big pot when you were in the bathroom or if someone bluffed or if you should raise with the nuts here or if you're getting the right price.

In addition to the issue with the pot size, you may not say, "I bet the pot" in a no-limit game, you have to bet a specific amount.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...nt-pot-905051/

http://www.thepokerfloorman.com/2011...nting-the-pot/

We're due for an IWTSTH thread, can't wait.

The only thing the dealer did that might be a little bit out of line is adding the "what does it matter" comment after saying it was $2 to you - it was unnecessary and may have actually influenced the hand. Everything else is 100% correct though.

You're allowed to ask the dealer for a count in pot limit games, because having that information is vital to the game. In no-limit games you're expected to track the pot size for yourself, the dealer can't give it to you:

Robert's Rules of Poker, Section 14 - No Limit and Pot Limit

...The player is responsible for determining the pot size at no-limit, not the dealer...

Robert's Rules doesn't actually mention limit games when it comes to asking the dealer for a count on the pot, I suspect because:

1: it's very easy to track yourself, given the standard size of all bets (seriously, you should be able to do the math yourself in less time than it would take the dealer to physically count the chips), and
2: if the pot is so big you're having trouble counting it, your pot odds will be so big as to be almost inconsequential.

As a result, I wouldn't be surprised if most card rooms apply the no-limit "count the pot yourself" rule to limit games as well purely as a time saving measure.

In limit games, the size of the pot is rarely an issue because it's generally easy to keep track of it in terms of big bets and you usually have odds to call on whatever draw you have.

Think about it this way too: in live limit poker, it's generally considered poor form to take too long making any decision given the "mechanical" nature of the game and the limited impact any one bet / action has. So given tanking is such a foreign concept, it's hardly surprising that people react this way when OP asks for something as time-consuming as a count on the pot...

How hard is it to keep track of the size of a limit pot??? You said yourself 4 people called 2 bets so the pot is at least 4*2*2 or $16. There could be a few extra bucks in there if someone limp/folded (lol NEVER) or the SB folded (lol almost never). So the pot is $16-$17. And btw you have no decision here. I'm sure the others at the table thanked the dealer when you left.

totally understand, yes being a rookie at a live table is a bit confusing, guess i'll know for next time. I talked to my friend who was once a dealer at this same poker room and she told me the floor manager would probably override what the dealer said, nonetheless i gave enough information away for my hand which was dumb but wutever next time i will be prepared. thanks for your input

also ya it should be easy to keep track, to much online play just makes people to used to being able to calculate everything simply

the "what does it matter" comment was probably what pissed me off most, thats when i insta folded and stood up. The problem is the chips are in a huge pile and hard to count specifically because how do i know how many in the middle of the pile are under one another, know what i mean. Now is that usually how chips are placed on a poker room pot, honestly i would think that they would make it look more professional by keeping the pile a little neat. If not w/e ill be going back i did have fun, ill just make sure i know what i'm in for and i will pay closer attention to all dynamics of the table, the only dynamic i was really paying attention to was player types. Thanks for the input and the link, will check it out. The hand i had wasn't good enough for the pot odds so thats really why i asked, very thin and had good implied odds if hit. Again not used to limit, also used to taking my time when betting /calling, either way rules are rules its fine i will be well prepared next time

No decision? please elaborate, wtf do you mean decision. Also didnt your mother ever tell you "don't say anything unless you have something nice to say". If your here to rip on me then don't comment. I know how to play limit well so you know if you mean i shoulda just called because i have no decision, well you must lose alot to flop bets lol. I doubt they thanked the dealer, i was shortstacked and vulnerable so i'm pretty sure they were angry that i left with the 1 giant pot i won. It was a simple question that i asked i don't need a lecture so please never ever comment on any thread i start again if your just gonna stick your nose in other peoples business and not even answer the question asked. I know it shouldnt be hard to keep track but guess what, i play nl mostly at micro stakes so im pretty sure its a bad idea to walk into a casino with a huge chunk of my br and dump it onto a nl table, so i played limit and ya i couldve calculated the odds if i wanted. Anyway thanks for pointing out my ignorance and not answering my question you giant douchebag. Again next time i will know and just to put it out there upon leaving i went back to the table and wished everyone gl and shook there hands. It couldve been very simple the dealer couldve easily said "it is against code to tel size of pot"instead of giving me a pfffff i cant tell u that(rude like yourself). Especially seeing as under poker etiquette on the webpage of the casino it says no where that you cant ask questions about that. Thanks for your 2 cents again and please come back and make fun of chat grammar or whatever it is that you want to make fun of because thats usually the next step of a troll like yourself.

Its limit poker.

There are 4 people in the pot (including yourself) and there was a preflop raise.

4x2x2 = 16. There is $16 in the pot .. maybe 18 if the SB folded.

On the flop there ia a bet. The only allowed betsize on the flop is $2 so the pot is now $18-20 and it costs $2 to call.

You are getting 9-10:1 on a call.

If you want to call, there is no pot odds decision. There is no hand that you could want to call with that pot odds dictate you cant call with.

With 4 players and a preflop raise there is no pot odds decision on the flop.

What he is saying is that pot odds have no bearing on your decision here.

Think about it

As I mentioned earlier, dealers purposely do not keep the chips neat in the pile. Have you ever seen poker on TV or live, and most people keep their chips in neat stacks, usually in stacks of 20, and then they win a big pot? It takes forever to stack them all up again, because even if you push your chips forward in a nice, neat manner (towers of 20-chip stacks), they all get mashed up and thrown together.

I have no idea why this is actually done, and have tried researching the origin of this, but it must be something dealers are told to do. It's not supposed to be made easy for you to count the pot if you weren't paying attention.

I have actually read that some places won't even let dealers spread the pot out for you, which I thought was pretty much allowed everywhere.

thanks brotha, like ive told the rest of the people who didnt come here to rip on me lol next time ill just be well prepared for that sorta thing. Honestly i had a lot of fun, and woulda had to leave in a bit anyway. I do enjoy live poker as opposed to online. Online is just convenient, but i may be getting a job a few blocks from that poker room in the next few weeks so i may be there often. good suggestions and good input much appreciated. Its just when u play online everything is counted out already so clearly i just need to be more adapted to live poker. Honestly i cant wait to go back and play. I got 4 callers on a 456 board holding 78 on an oop raise.

sorry wait, i don't see anywhere that is says this is against the poker room etiquette, do u?http://www.riverrock.com/casino/etiquette/poker/ If you can find it in there please point out my ignorance. Otherwise everything else you are saying is legitimate, my brother told me the same thing, the dealer shouldve said that he couldve spread the pot, but instead came across as a douchebag with his attitude, pretty poor customer service skills if you ask me.Obviously being a first time live player im gonna be slightly clueless. honestly tho the main reason i was frustrated was his attitude, he basically told me i need not know my pot odds, it's only 2 dollars. Tell me are you gonna call because its only 2 dollars everytime, if u are your gonna run broke. If anyone had poor etiquette it was the dealer clearly. It was as if he just thought i was some moron who had never played the game before and i have some pride so i take offence to that.

Mostly it'll be because it's quicker - live poker is already slow enough, can you imagine how much slower it would be if the dealer had to arrange the pot in nice neat stacks between every street? Especially since they'd be doing it with just one hand, and not everybody bets in neat stacks to start with (note that often dealers will "sweep in" chips with the hand they're holding the deck in to save time - you couldn't do that if you had to keep neat stacks).

It'd also make it slower to award the pot at the end of the hand, since any pot of significant size would have to be moved gently-gently across the table. One big messy pile is just quicker and easier.

As WVHillbilly and I pointed out above, doing the math yourself is actually quicker than having the dealer do a physical count in the case of limit games, and in big-bet games tracking the pot size is considered a player skill.

yeah that makes sense

in my mind pot odds played out though, lets just say it was a stupid question because it shouldve been an instafold and thought process was down lol. Good thing i left after that hand, the dealer could have spread the pot or told me he could have done so. Im sure he has dealt with worse then that. Next time i shall just pay full attention to stuff like that.

Just like to put it out there. I am a moron lol. I got steamed up because of the dealers attitude(he coulda just told me he could spread the pot). So i wasnt even thinking about the game at that point and did not even think to count it myself. As you say easy math. First time playing live so i just wasnt thinking, i was playing the cards and i had a pocket pair also so it was an easy fold really, The pot looked huge and i was just thinking somehow i might actually have the right odds to set mine...clearly not. I was also pretty tired and really i just went in with a min buyin to see how it felt to play live as i was randomly at the casino for a party, so i was also buzzing pretty good while playing poker which is sort of bad. I was smart enough to leave knowing my game was off though lol. Again next time ill know and i pretty much deserve any heat here. Guess i couldve prevented that by just clearly asking the main question and not explaining the situation hehe anyway anyone who helped me with my question thanks. Anyone who is ragging on me for my stupidity....fair enough, i wont make a stupid mistake like that again so no ragging haha. Cant wait for the next live session

I would call the flop btw.

FWIW, there are all sorts of quirks to live play and this was just one of them. It'll no doubt take a few sessions to get used to them, and as you've identified, the important thing is just that you learn from each session.

There's quite a few regular live players on here so never be afraid to come on and ask questions if you need to

0% douchebaggery lol thanks

really? 33 on an a210 board after a raise? you have to know your behind there. I might fold that pre if dealt in mid position again in a 10 man limit game, then again probably not as these tables are soft and limping preflop is usually thecase for the entire table.

dont pot odds always have to be looked at when playing limit holdem? I would think so. Dave sasklansky sure thinks so. More so on the turn yes but i knew i was behind so instafold it shouldve been

I wonder if live poker will come to digital chips on the table instead of physical ones to keep the table free from a big mess.

stoPop001.jpg (http://www.cardschat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40668&d=1320256296)

We have a casino like that around here, but every table game is electronic(no dealers at all). Just seems weird to me...may as well just stay home if its gonna be digital. I mean it blurs the line just a bit.

Yea, but you get more hands/hour. Fastest I heard of live was about 32/hour, and I have seen 50+/hour on 10 handed electronic pokertek tables. I have played at tables where they had less than 22 hands/hour.

You don't have a dealer to tip, so that saves about $4-10/hour depending on how you tip.

You see just as many tells, although different, at the electronic tables as with dealer/chips/cards.

I have found the electronic table to be just as talkative/quiet as a regular table. It all depends on the situation and people.

Oh and they have RFID cars and chips also: