(live game) Had to show mucked cards

Had a rather frustrating situation this weekend. Normally when I play live, I know I suck (translate, not that great), so I normally just find a cheap limit table and have a little fun when I go to a casino. However, someone gave me a couple hundred bucks to do whatever with this weekend, so I decided to give a $1/$2 NL table a shot. Within the first 30 minutes or so I ended up getting a pretty strong hand (not the nuts), I only had about $80 in my stack so (long story short) I was all in by the river. However, let me explain the river; (heads up) I had a strong hand and decided I would throw out a bet, the other player raised me enough to be all in. After previous rounds, I only had $12 left so I decided WTH, why not, so I called. First of all, he asked to see my cards FIRST, the dealer had to explain, "sir, he called your raise, you have to show your cards first." So he turned his cards over. I could see I was beat and mucked my cards. Before the dealer could get them in the mix, the other player said "can I see his cards?" The table went silent and the dealer said "you do have the right to see his cards." But the dealer did not turn them over yet, so the other player said "I would like to see his cards then." So, of course, the dealer exposed my mucked hand. From my understanding, he did have the right to see my hand, but that sure did piss me off . I sat there for another 2 hours and the other player never again asked to see another hand and, it appeared to me, he was an experienced player. This table was newly formed, so it's not like he picked me out just because I sat down by myself and he wanted to see what I was up to. I have no idea why he pulled that $hi!, but it really sucked. I started with $100, re-bought for $100 and left with $160. Not too bad for 3 hours of my first $1/$2 live session (I guess).

It's a shitty thing to do but he was completely within his rights. It's very possible that he'd played with everyone else at the table and just wanted to see the types of hands you were playing. It's also possible that the guy next to him told him how douchey it was after he asked to see your cards so he never did it again. Who knows.

I don't really get this rule of why you shouldn't look at mucked cards. For what reason is it against etiquette? Poker is a game that is about gathering information and using that information to your advantage. I try and keep track of percent of times someone raises or 3-bets when I play live and then looking at the cards allows me to assign a 3-bet/raise range. I try and keep track of a line someone takes and it's pretty useless if I don't know their cards. Maybe it's because I'm young and I've mostyl played internet where pt3 showed me the mucked cards bit I've never seen any logic behind not requesting mucked cards.

The logic goes like this; You took the man's money, you should let him keep his dignity.

Asking to see someones cards they are attempting to muck can also cost you the pot. Say they misread their hand and actually had you beat, if you ask to see their cards they are LIVE and the pot will go there way. Misreading boards actually happen fairly often live since people are more likely to be playing drunk/tired than they are online.

If somebody mucks their hand and I request to see it surely it would be classed as dead due to them mucking it so I would win the pot anyway?

Nope. If you ask to see them and the dealer (or the player) exposes them, they are live.

Ok this rule is actually really cool! I play at an aggressive live game in my city. 1-2 no limit or 10-20 limit. We have particular guys who come in and play wild, raise in strange circumstances to steal a pot. Well when this happens I push them all in make them commit to there bad hands or fold. If they call and try and muck I always make them show so the whole table sees how stupid they are. its embaressing for them, and uplifting for everyone else who wonders.

Yeah, let's embarrass a bad player so they either get better or stop playing.

Are you ****ing stupid???

Just from those who were talking at the table, I could tell at minimum 3 of 8 were regulars. If you include possibly 2 people who just weren't talking as regulars. It is very likely that only left me and 2 or so others as new to the table. Your scenario sounds very possible in that case... still sucks though . While I didn't have the nuts, I had about the 3rd nuts, so at least I was able to show I was playing with (some) fire.


This too. Because of what he did, I tightened up even more. As I stated above, I was actually on an upward swing when my ride (who was on a major downward spiral) decided they were ready to leave. I was literally pulling in my chips after hitting quads and doubling my money when my ride said "cash in your chips, it's time to go." That pissed me off as well, but that's another story.

On a high stakes poker match HU a woman was playing Ivey (I think) and she mucked a straight and realised as soon as she'd done it but it was too late. If Ivey had requested to see them would she have been awarded the pot then?

Edit: slightly related question. I was in a tourney recently and I called someone down with Q high on the river, they mucked when I called, do I have to show my hand in this spot or has them muckig awarded me the pot by default? I did show my hand straight away because I presumed I had to (and because I wanted the table to bow down and appreicate my sickness) but wondered what the actual ruling was?

Lol. So not only do you want to put the bad players off you also want to uplift the better players? WP.

If the guy/girl is an idiot trying to run over the table... I will definitely let the table know what they're up to.

There are many times in live play that I request to see. The reasons are from getting info to puttin them in their place.

If a guy/girl is cool like dat. I leave em alone.


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Ivey knows better than to ask to see them but had he, she would have been awarded the pot.

If you call and a player mucks without showing his hand you do not need to show. Just hold your cards until the dealer starts pushing you the pot to protect yourself.

Yeah cause it's your job to let the table know what they're up to. You're well within your rights to do this of course. Nothing in the rules against stupidity.

I'd rather just take their money but I'm greedy like that.

Works for me.

It's still incredibly stupid to point out the bad play of someone willing to give you their money. I know you think it makes you look good to show that you know how to play better than someone else but feeding your ego should come in well behind feeding your wallet. And if it doesn't you're not nearly as good as you're trying to make yourself look.

Has nothing to do with poker. It's a man thing. If an idiot needs embarrassing, I'm jumping on it. Yeah, it's my job. Like if a guy (debatable) calls me stupid, I react.

I don't really care how many posts you have. It only says you have no life. But if you're going to resort to name calling, Imma put cross hairs on you.

Just makes me feel good.... get it? See you at the tables. Well... briefly.


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Sweet. I have a new fan.

He made you leave immediately? Didn't get you at least 10 minutes. Your buddy must have been having an awful time. I've never seen someone say "We need to go NOW" without an extreme circumstance.

Even if I'm going to the casino with a friend, I always take my own car. For that very reason.

They always wanna leave early, or they're asking you for a front.


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You mean the sort of 'man thing' that you need to overcompensate for deficiencies in other areas? I'm ultra competitive and have been in several actual pissing contests, do I try and scare fish away from poker? No. I feel confident enough with myself that I don't need to try and draw attention to a sick read I just made.

Guess I'm an over-compensator. Feels good on me.


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I played 2 more hands, but he was hovering behind me, so I gave up. He was up about $100 when I sat down, and he sat down as well. He quickly burned through his $100 buy-in and went to the casino. 2 hours later he came back and had apparently blown $500 in slots and blackjack.

The casino is 4 hours away (Central TX --> Oklahoma). We took 1 vehicle

Ok makes some more sense. Sucks he blew through. I'm from texas too so I get the taking a trip thing. Sounds more like he was willing to wait but waiting make you and the table awkward right? Sort of unintentionally making you want to play less? And assume there was some alcohol involved. That's better than just walking by, grabbing your are and pulling you out the casino.

Just don't let your obsession with "man things" get in the way of your poker.

Seriously. You have to realize verbally putting someone in their place is inferior to taking their money. You make the latter harder if you major on the prior.

You should ask for a floor clarification.

In many casinos, IWTSTH (I want to see the hand) is only allowed to prevent collusion. There are some casinos that have outright banned IWTSTH.

If the player does not suspect collusion he has no right to ask to see mucked cards. It is not allowed so that you can gain extra information or embarrass someone just because. If you are an experienced player and the guy mucks after betting river, you can pretty much narrow his range down pretty precisely and if you can't, it's really unlikely you are skilled enough to be able to put the information to use anyway.

I've never asked the dealer to force someone to turn over their cards and never will. It's just obviously HUGELY -EV to do so. This is a blatantly obvious case where it's hugely -EV; if the guy is an experienced player, he can surely tell you are a live poker noob. Doing something to make poker noobs feel bad or angry or want to leave the table is just ridiculously bad.

Also, I just like dragging pots anyway that I can, and making someone turn over cards just delays the next hand. Move on.

That's great that casinos are getting rid of it. I've never been in any situation where I thought it needed to be used although I have seen a few douchebags do it.

Anytime I've been asked in my local cardroom i call for the floor, there is one reg that is renowned for it. He dosnt ask me anymore.

Its a really really good way to get rid of any fish thats there for a good time and a gambol,

Of course not. I like to break things up. Rather than play more and crappier hands when I get board, I bug easy targets,
In essence, I'm that douchebag that VW () hates so much. And I wear this moniker with pride.


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This thread needs to only address the thread topic or I will close it.

With all due respect...

In some casinos, IWTSTH (I want to see the hand) is only allowed to prevent collusion. There are very few casinos that have outright banned IWTSTH.

*Based on my experiences, In general IWTSTH is fully functional at the majority of card rooms in the United States. Anyone at the table can request to see the cards of another player. Las Vegas seems to be the leading city to have limited IWTSTH to suspected collusion and some outright ban.

Now, most casinos will put a stop to IWTSTH if they see a particular player abusing the privilege. Wynn, Mirage, Harrahs, Venetian, Mandalay Bay are the places in Las Vegas that allows IWTSTH only if you can explain to the floorman why you suspect collusion (same with Foxwoods). There are several rooms that only allows the opponent in the hand to request IWTSTH (Caesar's Palace LV, Ballys LV). Poker rooms in Jacksonville, Delaware Park, Aria LV, Bellagio, Flamingo have completely revoked IWTSTH. Please feel free to correct me if anyone feels they do not see it in an abundance of card rooms.

All Los Angeles rooms allow IWTSTH. All San Diego rooms allow IWTSTH. All SF Area rooms allow IWTSTH. All Atlantic City Rooms allow IWTSTH. New Mexico Rooms allow IWTSTH. Oklahoma rooms allow IWTSTH. All Colorado rooms allow IWTSTH by State Law I believe. All Missouri rooms I have played at allow IWTSTH. All Minnesota rooms I have played at allow IWTSTH. All Arizona rooms allow IWTSTH.

There are some knowledgeable people in poker who feel that research shows players have always been entitled to know the contents of live hands at showdown.


*Of course, I do not know the rules of every card room in the US, but am only commenting on my experience and what I have heard or been told. Although I have vast experience playing cards across the US, especially in the Western/Central US.

Certainly fair point. It is universally regarded as bad etiquette however.

Very BAD. Even I get extremely pissed if someone asks to see the hand, then I really paint a target on that persons back on a high level attempt to bust them with all my powers