Knowing Colluders

So I have a buddy who was telling me a couple weeks ago about how 5 people in his family go on Tilt to play a SnG together once a week and they are basically colluding the whole time. Not by telling each other their cards, just letting each other win and really only play against the non-family members. At the end, whoever won would transfer whatever equal portion of money to each of the others.

As he was telling me about this I told him that he had better tell them to stop otherwise Tilt was going to shut down all of their accounts and they will be locked out. Not only because of how they were playing games or that they are all from the same town, but the fact that they are transferring money back and forth to the people that they just got done playing. He told them, but they didn't listen.

So this week, their accounts got locked up, but it was interesting. Tilt didn't seize their funds or shut the accounts down completely. All they did was ban them from playing the same SnG's and then if they were playing both playing in an MTT and got to the final table, they would both be sat out and blinded out to thwart collusion. And if they want to get their money out, they each have to send in a ton more ID to make sure they are more than one person.

My question is, is this because it is small time and they don't do it very much that none of the money was taken back or what? I'm really mad that their accounts weren't completely locked up because who knows how often this happens to people and they are completely cheated, but they will never know because Tilt just slaps them on the wrist. Maybe their accounts shouldn't be completely locked up for first time offenses, but their "winnings" should be confiscated and redistributed to those who were cheated against.

absoluthamm said:

My question is, is this because it is small time and they don't do it very much that none of the money was taken back or what? I'm really mad that their accounts weren't completely locked up because who knows how often this happens to people and they are completely cheated, but they will never know because Tilt just slaps them on the wrist. Maybe their accounts shouldn't be completely locked up for first time offenses, but their "winnings" should be confiscated and redistributed to those who were cheated against.

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I think this has become pretty standard practice for both FTP and Stars. They slap people on the wrist and forbid them from playing together. I think they want overwhelming evidence\volume to ban, etc. I know I can link several threads on the subject from another forum.

It's all about the rake. If they stop them from playi9ng together they have fixed the problem. If they stop them from playing all together they lose that rake. Why would they do that to themselves.

kmixer said:

It's all about the rake. If they stop them from playi9ng together they have fixed the problem. If they stop them from playing all together they lose that rake. Why would they do that to themselves.

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yep. cheaters have good credit and will always have cash to spend

I have heard about this happening before on FTP and stars.
They can't play sng's together but prob can play in large tourneys together.
They were probably playing small stakes and it isnt worth the site's effort to pursue it.

u can play in anything with over 90 players together i believe..that or 180 i forget which

I agree with you, absolut. I think account closure is a little extreme for a first warning, but any funds they won during any SNG or tourney in which they were seated together should be seized and returned to the other players, regardless of the amount. Their buyins should also probably be redistributed amongst the other players.

The only reason FTP probably isn't doing this is because it requires a little extra work on their end to sort through it and they feel it's not worth the effort. Additionally, when players get funds returned and it is just a really tiny amount (like one buyin or something), the players getting refunded might be somewhat apprehensive about playing in the future with collusion in mind.

kmixer said:

If they stop them from playing all together they lose that rake. Why would they do that to themselves.

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exactly. they care more about their profit then they do their customers who are getting cheated...very lame. any player found to be cheating should be permanently banned.

I know a number of people have had refunds made to them by both stars and tilt because they had been at tables with colluders or multiaccounters discovered by the sites own detection methods. So I hope that would have happened in this case.

Chemist said:

I know a number of people have had refunds made to them by both stars and tilt because they had been at tables with colluders or multiaccounters discovered by the sites own detection methods. So I hope that would have happened in this case.

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That's happened to me quite a few times. And I play small stakes as well, so that is why I am the most confused as to why they didn't get the funds confiscated. Some might think it's because of the small stakes, but they have been refunded back to me in those circumstances.

kyndlyon said:

any player found to be cheating should be permanently banned.

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I completely agree. A cheater is a cheater. They will find some other way to cheat. They'll just get "smarter" about it. They're not gonna change their morals and values because of a slap on the wrist.

They're names, both real and online, should be placed on a public international black list.

Didn't the Vegas casinos have that black book back in the 60's and 70's where if you got banned from one casino, you got banned from them all?

It would seem to me it would be in the best interest of the online version to share info. Sure this is only small stakes stuff which is why they only got they slap on the wrist but I'd hope anything major would be shared. IP address, user names and such.

absoluthamm said:

That's happened to me quite a few times. And I play small stakes as well, so that is why I am the most confused as to why they didn't get the funds confiscated.

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Is it imaginable that FTP did both, i.e. they let the perpetrators keep their money and STILL paid the victims back their money? That way they wouldn't have to worry about legal repercussions from the alleged cheaters.

Oil_Fan said:

Didn't the Vegas casinos have that black book back in the 60's and 70's where if you got banned from one casino, you got banned from them all?

It would seem to me it would be in the best interest of the online version to share info. Sure this is only small stakes stuff which is why they only got they slap on the wrist but I'd hope anything major would be shared. IP address, user names and such.

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They STILL DO! Don't get good at blackjack or they will ban you from every casino in Vegas. azzholes, get good so you can't play.

Yeah, I have heard of this problem before. It’s all a matter of who gets to play and who doesn’t. They would not ban players if they know they are gonna lose something in the end. Better give them a small warning and see if they learn from there. Like what the other guy said, it’s been pretty rampant and could pretty much mess up with another players’ strategy considering that they have a common goal and build conflict of interest. So i guess we just have to live by it, they have money to spend and that's where providers earn their dough.

UM I am grunching but it is better this way from a security stand point. Say for example, they just perma ban these people. What you thing they are going to do. They will mostly likely create new accounts and do the same thing and it would take longer to catch/ do anything about. This way, they know who the colluders are and prevent them from colluding while still collecting rake. It is pretty good thing actually.

I've never even heard of this before. Thats insane that fulltilt would allow them to continue to play after knowing they've been cheating! I wonder- did your friend think you reported him considering your warning and then the following week they were caught cheating?

Other than the immediate transfers back and forth to each other after the tournament has ended, what other evidence do they have. Can you get banned for playing a lot of sitngo's with someone if you have a friend who plays the same stakes as you?

Anyone have any idea how many colluding complaints a player would need before he/she is punished or investigated?

kamehameha3 said:

I've never even heard of this before. Thats insane that fulltilt would allow them to continue to play after knowing they've been cheating! I wonder- did your friend think you reported him considering your warning and then the following week they were caught cheating?

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It wasn't my friend who got in trouble and he wasn't even involved. It was his brothers, brother-in-law, and sister that were doing it. I don't even know their SN's, so he knows it wasn't me.

TopJimmy99 said:

Other than the immediate transfers back and forth to each other after the tournament has ended, what other evidence do they have. Can you get banned for playing a lot of sitngo's with someone if you have a friend who plays the same stakes as you?

Anyone have any idea how many colluding complaints a player would need before he/she is punished or investigated?

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I have no idea how they were playing, so I don't know about this specific case, but many times there is very obvious chip dumping in peculiar situations, and if that happens numerous times over a big enough sample, bingo.

Also, it doesn't matter that you play with a certain person numerous times. Back when I was reg'ing SnG's I would play with some of the same people for hundreds of games over the course of a month because they were regs too.

Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. There are probably a lot of people that are regulars that play all day long, and I'd bet they populate the majority of entrants. Unfortunately I would think that would make it a lot tougher to prove any cheating, collusion, soft-playing, etc...

World's Dumbest Criminals

absoluthamm said:

So I have a buddy who was telling me a couple weeks ago about how 5 people in his family go on Tilt to play a SnG together once a week and they are basically colluding the whole time. Not by telling each other their cards, just letting each other win and really only play against the non-family members. At the end, whoever won would transfer whatever equal portion of money to each of the others.

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Are you kidding. Why would 5 people from the same family distribute $ to each other in the same poker room they were colluding in.

Well, I guess that's why they call them the WDC's.

You know I saw something earlier today playing a micro cash game after lunch that was...well, weird. I see in chat some German being typed. No biggie. I then on a whim wonder where everyone is from. I see 4 players all from the same town in germany.

I googled the name and found it to be a small town outside of Stuttgart with a population of around 5500 people. What are the odds that 4 people would all be at the same table from such a small town?? I don't know if they were actually colluding or just some friends that decided to play at the same table.

But it was a bit unusual...

I transfer my friend money on ftp alot/he transfers to me and we play the same stakes/tables, but we've never colluded before...honestly, if anything, I'd play harder against my friends instead of weaker

I would argue that since they are playing low-stakes, FullTilt does not have that large of an issue with the collusion. However, at the same time, no matter what the stakes are, poker players should not be able to collude because it is unfair to every other player at the table. Personally, I feel that the main reason FullTilt does not want to shut down all of these poker players accounts is because it ultimately would cost them money in the long run, so they just want to slap them on the wrist rather than ban them from playing.

Very Common

xdeuceswild81xx said:

I transfer my friend money on ftp alot/he transfers to me and we play the same stakes/tables, but we've never colluded before...honestly, if anything, I'd play harder against my friends instead of weaker

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I would expect that friends playing against each other is very very common. And, I would also expect the competitiveness to be significant between them.
Enjoy the game and the competition between your friend. I think the poker rooms actually encourage it. Hopefully, your not splitting up winnings after the games. Any trends along those lines would be a problem.

Good Luck