Insisting rules be followed in home games?

I don't have any casinos where I live so if I want a live game I'm stuck with the occasional home game or a $20 pub tournament where the play is pretty sloppy. Most players have never played in a casino so they don't know all the rules. Lots of looking at other peoples' mucked hands, string bets, coaching each other, pulling back out of turn bets, etc. There are no dealers and the guy running the game pretty much leaves it up to the players to decide things for themselves.

One hand in particular really bugged me because I was in the big blind with a medium strength hand and the blinds had gotten pretty high. It went like this:
Player 1 folds
Player 2 looks at cards, puts them back down past his chip stack and leans back
Player 3 folds, then mixes his cards in with the other 4 making it impossible to tell which were which
Player 2 grabs the stack of 6 cards and tries to fish his back out saying he didn't intend to fold

I object, he suggests the other 2 players pick their cards out so it's clear he's getting the same ones. The other 2 players don't seem to quite remember what their cards were so it takes them a minute to each settle on the two they had. In my mind, his cards should be dead for 2 reasons - his cards were mixed with others, and he looked at 4 mucked cards before making his decision. Nobody else at the table agreed with me so he was allowed to play on, making a huge raise that I couldn't call.

I give about a 5% chance that the players were working together. Most likely he was being honest and really did have the cards he claimed and simply didn't think to protect his cards, which nobody does in this game.

What would you do? Go with the flow, argue, keep gently lobbying for rules or simply stop going to that game?

I think I would have to stop going to that game. Once the play has passed you it's over! If your cards got mucked, then so be it.

I would've asked him why he didn't raise prior to all the confusion if his hand was so good.

It happened pretty quickly - he appeared to be taking a moment to figure out how to play his pocket aces.

Yeah if a player mucks his cards, he mucks his cards, there is no taking the cards back. I would say that it could be possible that player 3 played out of turn if player 2 was still "thinking" however if he decided he wanted to pull his cards back out, then no he was just being shady and wanted to play his hand now that everybody else was out of the pot. I would have raised hell. If I were you I wouldn't go back, or if I did I'd be really aware of my surroundings.....

I used to play in a game similar to what you've described here. I just talked to the host and he realized things would run much better if standard rules were followed. Since then, no problems.

I know casino rules they're mucked, but it's a friendly game. If he can tell someone else which two cards he had suits included and they're in the 6 cards I say let him have them. If he makes a regular occurance of this and says "AdAs" every time obviously that's wrong but the odds of him getting them right randomly like that are very low and it's likely he's telling the truth. I don't see a huge deal in a friendly low-stakes game doing that.

But in general if you don't like an unserious game and this game is not serious, then don't play. I'd either come to play just for fun (treat the entry as a fee for a night to have some fun with friends at the pub, and if you win it's just a bonus) or stop playing.

We actually have some casinos around here (Oklahoma), but I don't ever have the chance to make it out that way From what I can tell, you were completely correct in objecting (no doubt). Of the 3, player 1 was the only one that did anything correctly as he folded. Then players 2 & 3 only added to the mess

If player 2 placed the cards past his chip stack, w/out protecting them & not verbally announcing any attentions..I would've assumed (as the dealer) that he was folding the hand. Player 3 clearly folded, but in doing so, mixed both his cards + player 2's in the discard pile. Bad thing there is that the dealer (or whoever is dealing) should remove any folded cards from the playing area as not to confuse them with the other "live" cards. At this point, player 2 shouldn't have been allowed to remove any cards from the pile..(SOL dude).

I agree totally. The cards were mucked + he looked at the other sets of folded cards..giving him an advantage (cheating). If anything, you should've been given the chance to see the other folded cards as he was allowed to. Otherwise, IMO, 5% that they were working together may be ok, BUT I kinda think it's more like 75%-85% that he was looking for some sort of advantage...and got one Was he being honest, dunno? Why go threw all that trouble when the dealer had the option to simply stop the hand in play and redeal a new one?

Not sure if I'd press the issue, although it depends on your surroundings (and whether or not you'll see any beer bottles flying instead of cards). Looking for another game is always an option!

I have a friend who doesn't follow rules in almost every home game we play. When he's the dealer he'll actually look at the flop that's about to come before it's his turn to act and say "yeah I was about to fold anyways", just stuff like that but it gets kinda annoying. The thing about players who don't follow rules is that the reason they're doing it is becuase they need some sort of advantage outside of the rules to win. Just teach 'em a lesson by taking all their chips.

Well i know what your saying.
I play some cash games around here live and they can get pretty xrazy.
I host a tourney at my place about every week(not anything big just like a 20.00 to 50.00 buy in 10 people winner take all.
We all play by the rules and take it very seriously because of braggibg rights.
I would say basically if you are not happy with your situation then dont play there,or start your own game and inforce the rules.

Disagree. They're doing it because they're getting away with it. And "advantages outside of the rules" is defined by a single word: CHEATING!!

I have a brother who constantly double pegs or jumps tracks in cribbage; a first cousin who seems to think it's perfectly okay to look back through the trick piles in pinochle and bridge; and a couple of friends who have verbal and physical signalling in pinochle and bridge down to a science.

I WILL NOT play any sort of game, gambling or otherwise, with any of these people and will, in fact, get up and leave the table if they attempt to sit in. Other than that, they are perfectly nice people to whom I would never loan money or get involved in any kind of business arrangement with. A cheat is a cheat is a cheat.

I think you have to comprimise a bit with home games.

Cheating cannot be tolerated at all.

But you have to accept a home game for what it is (or usually is)

A group of friends getting together to play cards for small stakes.

If people dont adhere exactly to the rules, i.e rabbit chasing, playing out of turn etc..etc.. does it matter in the scale of things?

Id say no. Its a group of friends getting together to play a game.

If you want the rules adhered to like they are in a casino.. play in a casino or online.

If you are unhappy about the way people are doing things, firstly have a quiet word with the host at an appropriate time. If he dosnt want to change things then ask yourself if you can put up with the status quo. If not, noone is forcing you to go!!

For me the whole point of a home game is to be able to play in a non-casino environment with my friends. I want to be able to discuss hands im not in. I want to rabbit chase. I want to string bet from time to time. Why? because its only for small stakes and its fun. I dont care who wins because we all have a great evening and its far cheaper than going to the pub (although we probably drink as much as if we had LOL).

Whilst poker is a game I take seriously, home games are the poker equivalent of a kick about. When was the last time you saw a kid in a kick about get sent off or given a yellow card? Its just not supposed to be taken that seriously.. its just a bit of fun.

Now large stakes home games should be considereed differently, but to be honest if I were playing a large(ish) stakes game.. id feel a lot safe in a casino where there are figures of authority to enforse rules etc

Could you translate to American, please?

I was thinking the same thing! LOL

Could you explain what a "kick about" is and what a "yellow card" has to do with it? Just wondering and the curiosity is killing me!

Its football terminoligy.. or as you yanks would say.. soccer!!! LOL

A kick about is the equivalent of kids playing basket ball in the street.

A yellow card is something a referee would give for a foul.

Does that make i any clearer???

Yes, thank you.

Soccer has fouls?? I'm sorry to be so dense. My son played soccer for one season in middle school and my grandson is in some kinda peewee thing (he's 4) and I've watched a lot of matches (very reluctantly, admittedly) and still haven't a clue other than you can't use your hands, eventually the ball is supposed to go into the net. Oh, and for some reason the goalie wears a shirt different from his teammates.

Thank god I didnt bring up the off side rule!!! LOL

If his hand is not protected by a chip on it or some other type of protector his hand is dead period full stop

IMHO, Stu has the complete right of this...

You have to decide what you want from this game. I play in a home game from time to time where the play is just as sloppy (and gets sloppier as the night goes and and alcohol consumption goes up.).

We usually play when there is a PPV boxing match on and get together, split the PPV costs, and play 2, 3, or 4 SNGs.

It is for fun with different folks attending every time. The usual host and I are trying to encourage these people to play more often, so we actually will find someone after a game if they've done something we don't like and explain to them the proper way to do it. But during the game, we generally just let it go.

Like Stu said "Whilst poker is a game I take seriously, home games are the poker equivalent of a kick about. When was the last time you saw a kid in a kick about get sent off or given a yellow card? Its just not supposed to be taken that seriously.. its just a bit of fun.

Now large stakes home games should be considereed differently, but to be honest if I were playing a large(ish) stakes game.. id feel a lot safe in a casino where there are figures of authority to enforse rules etc"

Translated to American
kick about = sandlot baseball or pick-up game or basketball
Yellow Card = penalty

I host a small buy in game at my house every week, normally its $10 a man and we get anywhere from 10-15 people each week. It's winner take all and when the first one is over, we play maybe one or two more.

Anyways..

About half the guys that show don't understand string bets and coaching each other ("You should fold, he has a set") is a bad thing. I explain it and they won't do it again till next week. lol

But when they much...THEY MUCK. Thats it. You dont search for your cards because you "didnt mean to fold". Thats just BS.

If I were in your spot, I would find another game. No way would I play in a game like that that would allow that stuff to happen. Not only is it bad, it holds up the game.

GL

Thanks for the input, everyone! I think I'm going to stick with the game a little longer, but view it more as an opportunity to network and try to find home games with people I do like playing with. There are a few cool people mixed in with the annoying ones so I might get lucky. Also, I won 2 out of the last 3 so the money makes it a little less painful!

In the pub they should have to buy the table a drink before diving in the muck is allowed imo

sounds to me that you got screwed out of that hand DAMN cheatin bastards
if there are sloppy games being played find a new spot

wow you just described a crap shoot - stay away and stick to playing online if youre looking for action.

Or host the home games yourself and apply the rules as you see fit

you WILL get players willing to abide by them in order to get better

get blackout drunk and then attend the game