HR 1174 - The Bill the PPA Wants Us to Support

Everyone needs to read HR1174 BEFORE they support it. I realize that we may not have much of a choice, but now is the time to try to get input into it. IMO it just proves that government can f*ck up a wet dream. (mods feel free to edit)

There are 3 areas that concern me. It's tough reading, so this is only my interpretation.

The bill appears to lock out forever poker sites that have taken U.S. players since the UIGEA was passed in 2006, or anyone connected with a site that has been convicted of a crime. (Hence the current indictments of pokerstars and FTP.)

The tax provisions of the bill are unclear to me. There is no definition of time of payment:
3) COLLECTION OF CUSTOMER TAXES- Appropriate mechanisms to ensure that all taxes relating to Internet gambling from persons engaged in Internet gambling are collected at the time of any payment of any proceeds of Internet gambling.

COMPILATION OF DATASETS ON PLAYER BEHAVIOR - paragraphs C and D seem to be in conflict with each other. One saying that data on individual player behaviour can be requested but that it must comply with para D which says the player data must be anonymous.

Considering the events of Friday, you should start dealing with the fact that we will never play on PS and FT again. They will never get a license after what happened, even if they aren't specifically barred from HR 1174 or any other bill.

I'd don't think #3 is any different than what is currently required of Brick & Mortar places when you win an amount over $600. They are required to withhold on the spot and give you a W2-G. But I guess it could also be some sort of other tax when you deposit.

Much like smokers pay out the ass for the right to smoke, internet poker players are going to be paying some sort of additional rake to play online.

Sadly you are right about FTP and Stars, I'm afraid.

Understood. But you can't play 10 tables at a B&M. And it would make sense to tax withdrawals - deposits (or P2P transfers which otherwise could be used to avoid taxes) but I'm not clear on whether they mean when you get up from a table. (I'm not even sure they know what they mean). If it is when you leave a table, then loses would never come into play. And I see no mention of deductions for the fees charged for tourneys.

So far I have read up to the part where it states who can/can't apply of this license.

And the PPA wants you all to support this??

You're all getting f***ed on both sides here.

So much for relying on politicians to actually help your cause.

And the reading continues....

My reading, you will receive "payment of proceeds" when you withdraw which would suggest a tax on withdrawls.

That's how I interpret it as well, which would make the most sense to me.

It would make the most sense-that's why I'm questioning it though since there is no definition of time of payment and no mention of deposits. If I deposit $1K and withdraw $900, I wouldn't want to be taxed on $900.

I tried emailing Rep. Campbell, but since I'm not in his district, I can't and none of my Reps are on any of the committees the bill will pass through.

Yea it's funny when we file our taxes at the end of the year, we have a place to list gambling losses. The only problem is that you can only claim a loss no more than you won. So if you haven't won anything and only lost then your SOL on the losses, but if you win anything the government want their taxes.

I need to read more of this bill, but so far it doesn't look good. We are going to have to pray that a whole lot of our politicians played on pokerstars or fulltilt for any help here... But keep records of all losses of any gambling, even a one dollar scratcher, you will want them when you do win that WPT! Gotta run, BBL!

So far from what I've read it's exactly what I expected. What are some things you aren't happy with or don't seem reasonable?

Unfortunately, that's exactly how it works today in US BnM casinos. Doesn't matter how much you may have put into the machine or game before you show the 'win' ... you get taxed on the win itself, not accounting for any previous 'deposits' or monies used to win.

Plan on keeping records of all deposits so you can offset against your wins .. but that won't be until you file taxes ... and then it's between you and the IRS ... not between you and online site collecting the taxes.

It appears current loss vs gain will be the standard in any new online regulations or US legislation.

it depends how it works obviously if poker players are only taxed on there winnings and not there loses then there is major issue and making a living from poker would be near impossible. however if when taxed people are allowed to write the loses of against there wins then its fair. we cant allow for gambling loses to be tax deductible against anything other then gambling wins. because if it was it would not be in the nature of trade however when specific to gambling its in the nature of trade.

we all live in a society which has costs for road maintence police services military to protect the borders and etc. this has to be payed for from somewhere and it is done so by the taxes taken from everyone that works. a poker professional is a skiller worker who should as everyone else contribute his due to the financing of the necessity's of the state.

I certainly do not approve of poker been outlawed online as it goes against the principle of freedom and self determination. I would certainly like if poker was never taxed as is the case currently in the uk however we cannot really fairly argue for that position.

I still think time of payment could be interpreted as when the winnings are placed in your player account.

Maybe someone in Calif could contact Rep Campbell for clarification.

Well,we all know any regulations are going to be strict.Actually this looks like the best legislation that Ive seen to date.I could see this passing and becoming law.It would be better than,the way things are now for sure.
The only thing that concerns me is,The people who have been operating poker sites like pokerstars,and the others,are the best in the business.It would be a shame to lose their knowledge in running an honest site.
I would like to see the owners of existing sites,be allowed to operate a site some time in the future....
I believe we should pass this bill,and perhaps lobby for any changes at a later date....if we strongly need any revisions...and yes,i read it all.

I just want to kill myself, lol
If we are NEVER going to be able to play on Tilt or Stars again, what is the point. I think the bill might screw us on the sites we are left to play on?
I am growing a liking to them now and don't want that all effed up again.
One of them is awesome because they use an ewallet type of way to deposit so it is painless. (I don't want to say what it is called out loud because of stupid laws)

I think all the sites we can play at will be a thing of the past. So I wouldn't be leaving a lot on those sites.

I've also been reading that IF HR1174 passes it could be 2013 before it is implemented.

Although I think that Nevada is chomping at the bit to get their casinos online, so one never knows.

It's very sad that we will probably never have the chance to play against world-wide players again especially if taxes and rake make U.S. sites unpalatable to other countries.

Well that is good, because nothing will matter after the world blows uo on 12/21/12

LOL - GOOD POINT!!!!!!

well, one thing I saw was that all internet gambling will will be taxed.

ballgames, ponies & other sports are included.

I was hoping to get powerball and other lotteries to be allowed. but will

be illegal.

cheating is pretty harsh. this could be a problem for players with tracking software.

taxes could be steep 30 to 50% if this under the luxury tax system.

I don't care since I never win to make a withdrawll.

I know everyone, including myself, is worried that we won't get to play on PS or FT again, but maybe, just maybe, when this all settled (and it could end with a negotiated settlement for monetary fines) the operators of PS and FT might negotiate to be able to operate in the U.S. If they are, I'm sure they will be on some sort of probation and under the microscope. Just a poker player trying to have an optimistic view. Are the odds they will never get to operate in the U.S. again? Sure they are, but lest hope for the best even if the odds are long. Maybe if the owners of these sites sell them, the new owners could apply for a license.

This all seems pre-planned. Push the 2 largest sites out of the US market - blackout period that lasts however long - then a new entity swoops into the US market.

(3) UNSUITABLE FOR LICENSING- An applicant or any other person may not be determined to be suitable for licensing within the meaning of this subchapter if the applicant or such person--
‘(A) has failed to provide information and documentation material to a determination of suitability for licensing under paragraph (1);


‘(B) has supplied information which is untrue or misleading as to a material fact pertaining to any such determination;


‘(C) has been convicted of an offense punishable by imprisonment of more than 1 year;


‘(D) is delinquent in filing any applicable Federal or State tax returns or in the payment of any taxes, penalties, additions to tax, or interest owed to a State or the United States;


‘(E) has, on or after the date of the enactment of the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006--

‘(i) knowingly participated in, or should have known they were participating in, any illegal Internet gambling activity, including the taking of an illegal Internet wager, the payment of winnings on an illegal Internet wager, the promotion through advertising of any illegal Internet gambling Web site or service, or the collection of any payments to an entity operating an illegal Internet gambling Web site; or


‘(ii) knowingly been owned, operated, managed, or employed by, or should have known they were owned, operated, managed, or employed by, any person who was knowingly participating in, or should have known they were participating in, any illegal Internet gambling activity, including the taking of an illegal Internet wager, the payment of winnings on an illegal Internet wager, the promotion through advertising of any illegal Internet gambling Web site or service, or the collection of any payments to an entity operating an illegal Internet gambling Web site;


Under this current legislation draft FT and PS will never be able to return to the US market. This was all preplanned. Think about it, this draft was introduced in the House on March 17, 2011. Although after examining the UIGEA with my aunt (shes a lawyer) , this act isn't worded to include online poker since it is a game of skill (and luck of course) but as long as the DOJ says it is unappropriate, they wont be allowed to join the US market again because of violations to that particular Act. B&M casinos have been waiting for this. I wouldnt be surprised if they already have software developers putting the final touches on their poker software so that as soon as the legislation is passed they'll release it. It has always been about the money!

I aggree with Coolnout. The Gov could have likely stormed in at anytime and shut down FT, PS, and AP but they didnt. Instead they chose a few months to a year before legislation has a legitimate chance of passing and making it leagle. I think for 2 reasons:

1) piss people off so that it forces congress to pass this poor piece of legislation (cause most people were ok with it in the grey area and would not support forced taxation)
and
2) Allow adequate time for things to die down, so that when a new site comes on after leagle people will be happy and will forget or not care about taxes!

The only thing that may happen is some people will become frustrated and no longer play online but will just play in person (which works out better for casinos anyway).

Either way if you play poker online you are getting screwed. I think they should leagalize it, establish licenses, and then leave it on the individual to pay thier taxes (and if they dont, fine them or go to jail with Westly Snipes!).

You guys have to remember that UIGEA wasn't implemented until June of 2010. Cases this large take months if not years to build.

eventually we will be playing all the b&m casinos online and they will have the same people from around the world playing . money will be held instantly on big wins . and us government will be getting fat . live play will slowly dwindle down as online play progresses with video enhancement . we won't realize we are playing online till we look behind us and see our couch . jmo

It was implemented in 2006, just not fully implemented until June 2010. Lots of us had money tied up in Neteller for a while before we finally got it.


Neteller lost upwards of 65% of its business due to New Anti Gambling Legislation which was "porked" into law in October on the coattails of the port security bill. George W. Bush signed the bill on October 14th making it US law. Neteller is based in the Isle of Man, traded on the Britain Exchange, and was the favorite payment processor for Internet Poker.

Ahhh. Can't say I was around to see that.

I think the word you are looking for is legal.



Man, I've become such a troll.....

Australians are struggling with inept government regulations as well, specifically the IGA (Interactive Gambling Act) which prohibits Aussie players from playing on Australian based poker sites but NOT from playing on International poker sites. Yeah crazy I know - go figure

Surprisingly though some parts of our public service seem to show a semblence of intelligence.

Players from the USA may wish to quote from this report regarding all forms of gambling from the Australian Productivity Commission if and when they contact an elected representative.

http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/95682/gambling-report-volume2.pdf


Chapter 15 lists the pro's and con's of online gambling from an Australian and International perspective and in some places mentions the United States experience.


The whole chapter on internet gambling is 35 pages but mentions (among other things):


"Poker players perceive poker as a game of skill, rather than chance, and this has been

upheld by courts overseas... poker can be seen to be a much more pleasant, socially

interacting and entertaining pursuit… these attributes occur only in one other casino game,

blackjack, and then only as possibility, not as an essential component. (John Beagle,

sub. 249, pp.1-2)

It is our view that online poker requires greater levels of skill than betting on a random

outcome of a sporting event or other contingency. As such the IGA imposes an unfair and

unexplainable distinction between the two forms online gambling (wagering and poker) and

as a consequence, provides markedly different legislative rules … In some jurisdictions in

the US a ‘pre-dominance’ test is applied that rules a game to be a game of skill, if skills

predominate over chance. In some jurisdictions such as Colorado and Pennsylvania, courts

have ruled that poker is predominately a game of skill. Poker is also differentiated from other

forms of gambling in that it is played peer-to-peer with the dealer taking a cut, as opposed to

playing against the house. (Interactive Gaming Council, sub. 255, pp.21-22)

…the poker operator (whether terrestrial or online) has no stake in the final outcome. As

such, poker truly constitutes an activity wherein the individual participants match wits and

their skills against one another. This is part of the reason for the significant growth of poker

as an entertainment activity. It allows an environment to be created where players can meet

and participate in a game whose outcome is dependent on their skill. In this respect, it is no

different from other skilful games like bridge and chess… In addition to being a recreational

activity, the player to player format of online poker means there a social aspect to the game.

The game of poker is a special case and should be regulated as such, irrespective of how

other online casino games are treated. It is submitted that, at the very least the IG Act

should provide for an exemption to permit online poker games in a player to player format."






I hope this helps in some way.

I agree with all of that. IMO poker is substantially different from the casino games.

I have never been a good speller and I am too lazy to do spell check on a blog.

Becoming a Troll is to be expected

I think it's a shame that the PPA is trying to support a bill that still lumps online poker into the same category as horse betting...