How to manage against donky's

Hi guys, I am new to the poker forums and I have some questions that I would like to ask. I came to these forums because google can only do so much.

I have been playing poker on and off for a couple of years now, and I do well in the casino's (in fact I have never walked away with less than double my buy in :P) I am trying to make a profit playing online poker using pokerstars and at first I lost a lot of money. I currently am at the stage where If I really focus I can break even over the course of a week. Anyway the reason for my ability to only break even comes from the fact that I lose a lot more money to donky's that I win from them+good players combined.

For example with a rock/multi table player on a 0.5/0.10 I know 90 percent of the time exactly where I stand in the hand. I can tell if they hit, I can tell if they are strong/weak and I can almost put them on an exact hand. And this means making money from them is slow but steady.

But because my Bank roll is $100 give or take 10 dollars depending on the days take. (or lack thereof) I can not play higher stakes. Which means I am constantly faced with complete idiots (as hellmuth would say) and I have no idea where I stand in the hand.

So with out any more intro's from me I will place my question to you followed by a senario.

How do you know where you stand in a hand with some one who calls HUGE pre flop raises with Ace x or 56s or 22 or any two paint cards?

I am not joking when I say that EVERY time I raise a large amount pre flop to narrow the field and push the idiots off their marginal hands they call my raise and flop 2 pair with my self holding top pair top kicker. HOW do you know where you stand?

An example.. Earlier today I was playing a 0.5/0.10 game and I was in the CO position. The resident table donk raised to 3 times the BB which is 30cents. I have been watching him for a while and know that he will call any re-raise. So anyway the table folds round to me and I happen to land on Ace Queen off suit...... I think to my self If i raise this, he will call, if I limp this, I have no bluffing potential and it is just bad play. So I decide to raise it to a $1 and surprise surprise the donky calls the 70 cent re-raise.

Anyway the flop comes down xJQ rainbow. I now have Top pair top kicker. I bet $1 desperatly trying to drive this irrational opponent off the hand. Anyway, he reraises to $2 and I have just 2 dollars left now so I re raise all in. He calls and flips over Queen Jack.... to make 2 pair. Anyway I was lucky enough for the Turn and the River to bring King King giving me a Higher two pair and took a nice $10 pot.


However, most of the time I will raise with my King King or Ace Ace a Huge huge amount pre flop to try and drive the original donk raiser off the pot, because quite frankly, I hate playing with them. They seem to always make runner runner straights/flushes. But anyway, I raise with my Huge poket pairs, and the idiots will call with any Pocket pair or Paint X and hit either 2 pair or a pair of aces over my kings. What do you do?


Another type of player is the slightly better but still terrible donk, who has a better idea of what starting hands to call raises with but has NO idea of his hand strenght after the flop or of what the other player could hold. For example,

Scenario 1 I raise 5 times the BB with my Pocket Aces
-Donk calls with Ace Jack, Flop comes J 10 2 Rainbow, Donk bets a large amount, I re raise and donk shoves me all in. I call and win the pot.

Scenario 2 (same player) I raise 5 BB with Pocket Aces,
-Donk calls with 55. Flop comes 2 5 6 as you can see the donk has hit a set.
Donk bets, I reraise donk shoves, I call I lose the showdown to trips.

Scenario 3 Aces again with a large raise from me pre flop.
-Donk calls with 56o Flop comes 10 5 6 Again, I will lose the pot because the idiot has flopped 2 pair.

Scenario 4 I have Aces, large raise..
-Donk calls this time with J9o and the flop comes 10 9 2 The same betting takes place donk shoves etc I call and I win the showdown with a higher pair.


So after all this information ^ how on earth do you put some one on a hand who has no idea of the value of their holdings compared to what is out there?

Thanks

Play more and get used to the variance of online poker. It can be horrible at times but keep playing well and getting your money in good and in the long run you will come out with profit.
In scenario 2 you mentioned, what are you beating when "donk" bets, then reraises your raise? you need to be able to fold big pairs, because a lot of the time after the flop, they aren't the nuts.
Also, try and play with a full 100bb stack at cash tables, that way you win more when you get those big hands.
Good luck

Ok thanks man, does any one else have anything to contribute?

I do not know if you have a HUD, if not get one!!!
Once you have this review your sessions.
Post hands here under the HA section of Cash Games.
With a $100 roll drop down to 5nl so you can get a good feel for the game.
Look into Bankroll Management,theres plenty of stuff on here use your search box
Don't know if you muti table if not start off slow with 1\2 more tables.
Read some books.You can use the search box here for that has well.
Make notes on the players.

-TPTK isn't the nuts
-Nits like you who can't fold TPTK makes playing suited connectors and small PP's profitable
-You're playing way out of your bankroll. Play 5NL at the very highest.
-Why are you sitting at a 10NL table with 5$?

"It's never the gun, Farley, it's always the hunter." Billy Bob Thornton

Lot of critical info left out on these hands -
Are you playing full ring or 6-max? How many at table?
Do these donks have position on you?
How do you bet your non-monster hands? What's your VPiP?
How much do you bluff?
Could there be any other factors contributing to you getting no respect?
Do these guys stay in the hand even when they don't hit the flop? What do they do when they miss?

If what you say is accurate and they are just donks drawing out on you -

PRE-FLOP - you know it's a hugely wide range and they just want to see the flop - great for you if you are ahead pre-flop (AA usually is).
FLOP - realize this just changed everything and now you need to reevaluate. Simple as your KK could have just become worthless when 7A2 flopped. More difficult is one card difference - 7J2 - your overpair is good UNLESS villian has 77, 22. JJ, J7, J2, or 72. Six different hands that can kill you and the worst part is they are all in his range (from what you are saying).
Looks to me like you need more attention, study and practice playing the flop. Shoving TPTK after a re-raise is not smart poker. In fact the way you wrote it up leads me to believe you are prone to tilt. You did it to just get him off you instead of thinking he might actually have you beat.
It is even possible a guy could go with ATC just to get in hand with you because they have seen how weak your playing is post-flop.
Remember - the flop changes everything and you need to slow down to breath and think.

Not even going to get into the turn....

Theres no secret formula for beating a donk. They do a lot of pushing and praying and when they do you pretty much just have to do the same. Anyway Aldito gave some really good advice and there are some great players here. Good luck with your game and welcome to the forum.

THIS HAS TO BE THE QUOTE OF THE YEAR REGARDING DONKS!They do alot of pushing and praying and when they do you pretty much have to do the same.

You have to adjust to each player. If he is playing every hand tighten up a lot and then raise big when you get a hand. These people are easy to play against it's not that difficult.

Great response here ^ +++ I was going to respond to your post here General & was thinking of inserting comments within your orig. text but after reading MediaBLITZ's post here, mine would really pale by comparison. He's summed it up nicely here for ya imo.

Also, (as has been previously mentioned), move down to 5nl - - your bankroll isn't really big enough for 10nl. Never sit with less than 100bb (have your settings set so it will automatically top your stack back up to 100bb's anytime you fall below it).
The 'donks' are a good thing.... trust me on that one, lol.
Have fun looking around the site here as I'm sure you'll find lots of useful info.
Welcome to Cardschat!

Can't add alot to what MediaBLITZ has said apart from you only seem to be able to play level 1, purely your own cards and not taking consideration table texture and other players betting pattens.

You also seem to overvalue your hand postflop, very dangerous.

If you have time, watch and study players you have respect for, check their showdown cards. This could be an eyeopener.

Aldito is looks like I had you all wrong. You do seem to know what youre talking about.

I was having this problem and it has been a real eye opener to me. Learning how to fold TPTK and even large pocket pairs after the flop is +EV depending on the situation because money not lost is definitely money won.

The good news is your hand reading will get lots better over time by trial and error, but it's important to note that when someone reraises you post flop take a look at the texture of what's out there.

If you're on the flop, figure out if it's possible they're raising for when a flush draw or u/d straight draw hits, or maybe two cards out there that are common holdings they might have hit, or possibly even flopped a set. Evaluate their play from preflop until now to help visualize what they could be playing.

If you're reraised on the turn, and you only have 1 pair it might be best to lay it down. Almost all turn raises mean something stronger than 1 pair.

Once you get your opening/calling/reraising hand strategy down pretty good, and use the above information, make some tweaks to your aggression in various spots you'll end up making a decent profit from your sessions online.

Thanks for all the great comments guys. There have been a lot of useful ones. I would like to point out that the scenario's were hypothetical. But the comments you used to respond to them were still good so thanks.

I can play beyond level one :P I just do go on tilt against donky's because I never know if my hand is good against them. I don't stone cold bluff ever. I C bet if I miss 80 percent of the time but who doesn't. I Think the most important thing I learnt from this is Turn bets = more than a pair for most decent players. For the real idiots out there I think as people said ^ I will just have to pray my cards hold up.

Thanks guys

It's late. I only read parts of this so sorry if anyone asked this. First guy. if you know he's calling anything, do you have much bluff potential with or without the preflop raise? Does he just see most flops and once there are community cards, he'll fold something? Just seems like you id'ed him as loose anyway which would make him hard to bluff regardless, and the preflop raise which you knew was getting called would add to his pot odds, making it even tougher to bluff him. IDK. it's late maybe i read it wrong. I'm just staying away from another game while i'm tired.

Hmm you are right that it adds to his pot odds, the problem is, that if you don't raise with your premium hands it allows the other good players to limp in to see a cheap flop. My Ace King suddenly looks a lot worse against 4-5 other players.

Don't worry about limping premiums, raise them up and you charge people to outdraw you and get maximum value from worse hands

"Anyway the flop comes down xJQ rainbow. I now have Top pair top kicker. I bet $1 desperatly trying to drive this irrational opponent off the hand. Anyway, he reraises to $2 and I have just 2 dollars left now so I re raise all in. He calls and flips over Queen Jack.... to make 2 pair. Anyway I was lucky enough for the Turn and the River to bring King King giving me a Higher two pair and took a nice $10 pot."

I bet the player you lucked on is thinking "how do I beat these damn donkeys". The way you played that hand was just awful.

What hands does he call all in that you can beat?

Lets look at the flop QJx, lets make hat x=2 for clarity

Flop QJ2.

Now I dont know jack about villian, but I expect him to call with the following hands that you can beat

QK - yes thats it.

And the hands he calls that you cant beat

QJ,QJ2,J2,QQ,JJ,22,AA,KK.

So next time you are considering making a shove (with one pair lol), pause and think about what hands he will call that you can beat. And also I think the underlying reason for you shove is that you dont want to have to make decisions later in the hand when scare cards hit.

Well you are right but my point is that he actually isn't going to call with just Queen King. You are assuming that these idiots partially have a brain. These guys call with NOTHING with no real plan and just hope that magic helps them. The villain in question I observed calling with a small pocket pair on a flop like King Ace 8 for example and even BETTING with a a small PP.

The problem then comes around to... if you DON'T bet, then they WILL. Because they think their hand is either good. When in fact all they have is middle pair OR they try and bluff because for them the money is already lost when the log in.

Also I would not go all in with a large stack, as people observed I was playing short stacked which I don't do anymore.

I have read the posts and find one thing lacking. One of the most important tools against donk is to be much more paticent than you would normally. Playing at most one in 18-20 hands.

I would argue that you should be a little bit more modest in terms of where you think you are in a hand. If it was true that you knew exactly where your opponent stood 90% of the time, it doesn't really matter when they hit two pair or the set, because you know exactly where you stand and should make the lay down. Don't assume that you know where you are in every hand, because often at these lower stakes you have no idea what your opponents range is. Sometimes, they are willing to play complete crap and at other times they have the nuts. In order to really learn and get better, I suggest you learn from a lot of the successful players at this forum who will help you take your game to the next level. Good luck!

A few things from this first hand. If you know this guy will call any re-raise pre-flop, then just calling with AQ saves you money. 'cause if you miss, now what do you do ?

Second, you only started the hand with $4 ? Always, and I mean always have the full stack. Have the finds available to make people fold or get max value.

Micro stakes can be more swingy than some others but be more patient, wait for a monster and get paid by the donks.

Well I pay close attention to the people at my table and for the majority of them it is very easy to put them on a range. Your typical multi tabler who is oblivious to who is at the table or who is doing what will play absolute ABC poker without vartiation. There are others though who raise it up with small pocket pairs or suited conectors from middle position or what ever. They are more tricky to put on a hand but if they raise it big, then you KNOW they have you beat.

Where as with the donky's if you Raise with Ace King and the flop comes

K 4 6 and you raise and your donky oppononent re raises you think "ok" maybe he has trips or two pair. So anyway if you call the raise and then the next bet and the next bet, then a lot of the time they flip over crappy hands like King 9 or King 3. They assume that because they hit their king they are good to bet all their stack. So if the next time they are betting large amounts you are inclinded to maybe call, but this time they flip over trips or a river straight. You just. dont. know.

ps I'm playing with a full stack now duffers.

head asplode

1) Why try and drive an opponent off the hand when you have TPTK if he is a loose donkey. Surely just take him to value town. When you bet $1, the pot is now $3 and you have $2 behind and are ahead most of the time.

2) Ugh this range is so bad, AA-JJ would probably have 4-bet shoved pre. so realistically he can have QJ and 22, as Q2,J2 aren't likely to call a 3-bet preflop. If villain is as bad he says, he could also stack off with AJ,KJ,KQ, Q10, 1010-77, maybe even J10, 10-9 or K10. Nothing wrong with stacking off here with TPTK, maybe rethink this if 100bb deep against a competent opponent

As far as i can tell, OP shortstacks microstakes on a single table and complains about variance? Why am i not surprised?

In this thread I have learnt that crazy donkeys who never fold marginal hands will only ever call with TPGK, sets two pairs and overpairs...

See how what you are saying contradicts itself?

Playing with donks can be very painful, but beating them in the long run i one of the easiest tasks. Just play straightforward level 1 abc poker and valuebet hard. Don´t bluff or make any fancy plays. It´s really easy money if you stay disciplined. The donks are your best friends !!

Reread post #4 and add
Don't buy in short, buy in 100bb
Thats about it \thread

Very painful indeed especially when being sucked out left right and centre but over the long haul if you're getting your money in better than them, it's impossible to lose.

Just try to think long term. By the way you feel more variance on line than live purely because of the amount of hands you're playing. There will be a point at live where you hit down swing too I'm sure.

Donks are unbeatable avoid them at all costs

Ok thanks, some more good comments and some not so good ones :P but I think there is some good advice here. ABC is the way to go against them and patience as well.

Im afraid that I DID play micro stakes short stacked and then DID complain about variance. This is because I am trying to build my bankroll. I do not have the funds available to play 10 tables at a time full stacked. Well I have JUST enough, but I'm simply not good enough yet to risk my entire bankroll in one sitting.

Have you never seen people flat AA-JJ pre at these stakes? lol, they are totally in his range.

And just because op says villain is bad doesnt make it so.

So we cannot assume villain stacks off on straight draws and second pair.

Perhaps the villain is a semi competent LAG. People like OP, sometimes, make their hand ranges pretty much face up thus making playing hands you might think of folding profitable at times. Now I am not advocating calling J2 or Q2 oop to a raise pre. But if you can call a small raise in pos, and know the villain will stack off TPTK it makes some sense to call them light every now and then. Plus you also know there will be loads of fold equity if no broadways hit the flop.

Meh, that's smart play and it's something that I watch out for and also use my self. However i assure you that this player was a complete moron, bluffing with 8-3o on a paint dominated flop. It was impossible to even come remotely close to putting him on a hand.

Well, some pro poker players like to do that, being unreadable at a certain basis is basic for good strategies and can be taken as donky playing.