How can u suck at ring games but win SNG`s & MTT`s?

Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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Just driving me mad.

My strategy for winning SNG`s and MTT must suck when playing ring games.

How can that be?

I play a lot of Omaha hi lo. Fixed limit PLO8 ring games are the most annoying game ever, the most boring, but I keep playing to build up my Player points on stars - I would not try playing pot or no limit cash games because I know I will lose.

I think, when I play MTT`s and SNG`s I am on a level playing field as everyone else - same chips.

However, when playing cash games u see to get some bizzare plays.

Right or wrong, I think playing MTT`s & SNG`s has to be the more skillfull game - it seems that ring games is a question of taking a major chance and then rebuying until u hit
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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I`m playing a FLO8 ring game at the moment.
9 players at the table.
I visited www.officialpokerrankings.com
Every player at the table has a MTT/ SNG ROI of -25% or worse, other then me.
This might back up what I`m saying?
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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So you think that shallower stacks equal MORE skill????

I think you're mistaken. Does it make more sense that you'd be better at the more skillful game but suck at the easier game or vice versa?
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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So you think that shallower stacks equal MORE skill????

I think you're mistaken. Does it make more sense that you'd be better at the more skillful game but suck at the easier game or vice versa?

I`m more shooting the breeze. However, I`m not a good cash game player, so I might be biased ;)

The way I see it, and I might be way wrong.

When u play a mtt or SNG, everyone is given the same `ammo` 1500 chips or whatever. U then have to do what u can with those chips.

However, when playing a cash game, u could be sitting with a peashooter and they have and AK47 - to win this battle the guy with the AK47 doen not have to be as skillfull as the guy with the peashooter :)

I`m sure my logic is flawed, and u get into the relms of bankroll management.

But one thing u can`t deny, playing a MTT/ SNG u all start on a level playing field, ring games don`t.
 
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RamdeeBen

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There is a huge difference.

I personally can't play one, then switch to another and expect to play the same, you have to adjust. I used to play SnG's souely then cash and switched back etc many times. I could consistently win at either, be it small stakes but still, I couldn't go from SnG's now to cash and expect to play the same because you're set in your ways of SnG mode. You're in shove/fold mode etc which never happens in cash.

For example, in a SnG/MTT, early stages when fully stacked is very basic, just keep very tight and only play premiums until you get a monster for example and then when the blinds rise you have to start playing more aggressively and so, till the point you're shoving ATC.

In cash games, (majority of time, unless you're a short stacker) you're playing full stacked, so the general concept would be just to play tight, which "will" work at the smallest levels of cash games, but you have to become a lot more creative if you want to advance levels..

I personally think cash games are a harder game to play than SnG's/MTT's purely based on how people play, suited connectors in position, 2,7suited in position can be played very well in position if you know what you're doing for example. There is so much more skill involved in trying to out play others in cash games, a skill I don't really have so stick to SnG's/MTT's.

In the SnG's you can just play quite a straight forward ABC sort of game and aggressive and be quite successful. The same applies in MTT's to a degree..
 
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RamdeeBen

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I`m more shooting the breeze. However, I`m not a good cash game player, so I might be biased ;)

The way I see it, and I might be way wrong.

When u play a mtt or SNG, everyone is given the same `ammo` 1500 chips or whatever. U then have to do what u can with those chips.

However, when playing a cash game, u could be sitting with a peashooter and they have and AK47 - to win this battle the guy with the AK47 doen not have to be as skillfull as the guy with the peashooter :)

I`m sure my logic is flawed, and u get into the relms of bankroll management.

But one thing u can`t deny, playing a MTT/ SNG u all start on a level playing field, ring games don`t.

This is true, but this is also true with cash games, the majority of people will buy in full stacked..


Not sure what you mean a "level playing field" just based on everyone having same amount of chips. The big difference is, you are happy for others to bust each other playing their garbage hands and you sitting tight and pritty waiting for a monster or waiting till you have to push some garbage. It's quite easy to cash just sitting back in SnG's like I say.., cash games requires totally different set of skills, SnG's at some point you have to shove some crap hand wouldn't normally do in a cash game and might double up or bust. The point is, the game is soo different you can't really compare playing SnG's and cash even if everyone is fully deep stacked, the difference in the whole thing is just so so different lol, can't explain why but defiantly not more skill in SnG's I don't think.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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I`m more shooting the breeze. However, I`m not a good cash game player, so I might be biased ;)

The way I see it, and I might be way wrong.

When u play a mtt or SNG, everyone is given the same `ammo` 1500 chips or whatever. U then have to do what u can with those chips.

However, when playing a cash game, u could be sitting with a peashooter and they have and AK47 - to win this battle the guy with the AK47 doen not have to be as skillfull as the guy with the peashooter :)

I`m sure my logic is flawed, and u get into the relms of bankroll management.

But one thing u can`t deny, playing a MTT/ SNG u all start on a level playing field, ring games don`t.


Your logic is flawed because it's not like going to war with a peashooter vs a AK47. It's like going to war with both parties having the same gun and the guy with the smaller gun in his arsenal chooses the weapon. In other words, the smallest stack size is the only one that matters. If I start a 5nl hand with $1 million dollars and you start with $5, guess which number matters? The fact is that no matter what we won't be playing for more than your stack size allows.

The difference between cash and tourneys is that generally when we play cash games our starting stack size will be bigger when expressed as bbs. As we play a tourney our stack size goes down (when expressed as the number of bbs) in cash games that's really not an issue and often if we sit at the same table for a long period of time the opposite is true.
 
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only_bridge

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OP already answered his own question I think.
It depends on your opponents this one.
Vs 8 complete fishes at a cash table, of course you will be a winner.
 
Poof

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Both types of games require different types of play. I know there are alot of ppl who are good ay cash games and suck at tournaments. You have to adjust, you cannot play cash with the same mind set you use for tournaments.
In cash you should be more patient, the blinds are not going anywhere, and everyone at the table knows that as well, so the good players will fold alot. Cash can be quite boring if you don't have a spewtard at the table.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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It's never boring when you ARE the spewtard at the table!
 
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fugitive67

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ha, right in cash you wait for a tilted drunken fish and try to beat the others at the table to his chips and that's were you get the multi tables from ... then you don't have to wait as long for a fish and you improve your chances of getting his chips

in tourney, you play your tight/aggressive/opportunistic tourney style ... make your adjustments in regards to normal/turbo, etc. ... you can't really wait for a fish, but if you play well, they seem to find you
 
Ronaldadio

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Your logic is flawed because it's not like going to war with a peashooter vs a AK47. It's like going to war with both parties having the same gun and the guy with the smaller gun in his arsenal chooses the weapon. In other words, the smallest stack size is the only one that matters. If I start a 5nl hand with $1 million dollars and you start with $5, guess which number matters? The fact is that no matter what we won't be playing for more than your stack size allows.

So as I said, Bankroll Management?
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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It could be that I like the excitement of MTT`s & SNG`s where u know u can bust out of a tourney and also bust others out.

I`m not good enough or experienced enough playing ring games - "How long should I play for", "Should I leave when I`m 10% up (or down)" etc - all of this is taken out of the equation when u play MTT`s & SNG`s

The frustration is that u seem to be able to get more FPP`s playing ring games than MTT`s & SNG`s :(
 
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orangepeeleo

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Right or wrong, I think playing MTT`s & SNG`s has to be the more skillfull game - it seems that ring games is a question of taking a major chance and then rebuying until u hit

:)
 

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RVladimiro

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I think that although there's a lot of common, ring and tournament have distinct skill sets or at least know-how. When I had a sweat session with SNGs I heard things that I never thought that existed and never made any sense in ring games, like ICM. Is there any ICM in ring games?
 
Poof

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It's never boring when you ARE the spewtard at the table!
lol, this is true, and then you get those lucky suck outs with your 83o because you HAD to see the flop, and everyone swearing at you and telling you they are going to kill your family, good times.....
 
Olddog21

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IMO...ring games are not for the risk averse players...in MTT's you can only lose once...learning how to survive does NOT bode well for ring games where you have to take advantage of your good hands....without the other players folding too soon....alot of ring players want to wait for ANOTHER good hand...sometimes the other player is depending on that thinking....if your bankroll permits it and you like your hand reraise to see where your oppinent really is in the hand! Just one man's OP!
 
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only_bridge

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IMO...ring games are not for the risk averse players...in MTT's you can only lose once...learning how to survive does NOT bode well for ring games where you have to take advantage of your good hands....without the other players folding too soon....alot of ring players want to wait for ANOTHER good hand...sometimes the other player is depending on that thinking....if your bankroll permits it and you like your hand reraise to see where your oppinent really is in the hand! Just one man's OP!

I dont know, you should try some of the tournaments I play.
What about the xx$+r 3x turbo with 90min re-buy period.
You could easily be in for 50 buy-ins even before reaching the add-on, and still not finnish anywhere near the money.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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IMO...ring games are not for the risk averse players...in MTT's you can only lose once...learning how to survive does NOT bode well for ring games where you have to take advantage of your good hands....without the other players folding too soon....alot of ring players want to wait for ANOTHER good hand...sometimes the other player is depending on that thinking....if your bankroll permits it and you like your hand reraise to see where your oppinent really is in the hand! Just one man's OP!

I`m not sure about the being worried about taking a risk, but I think u have a point.

For me I like to see a start and finish, no matter what I was doing.

When playing ring/ cash games the way I see it is that it is a life long mtt with unlimited rebuys - if u will.

I will admit, I am very results orientated. My drive is as much to win a mtt/ sng as it is to win the cash. I don`t thin that in itself is a bad thing
 
dmorris68

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I will admit, I am very results orientated.
In poker, this is a *very* bad thing. You need to disabuse yourself of this notion immediately.

Some simple points and opinions that I'll offer you:
  • MTT vs STT vs Ring require completely different strategies and adjustments between them. Even within a game type, say a STT SNG, there are variations (DON, Satellite, Freezout, Bounty, etc.) that necessitate different optimal strategies. Most players don't play them equally well, particularly at the same time. I myself tend to focus on one almost exclusively for awhile, then as I either get burned out or hit a long patch of run bad, I'll switch to something different that requires I change gears and re-focus. For the last couple months I've played almost exclusively DONs, as they've been extremely profitable for me. If/when I hit a significant downswing or just can't find the volume I'm accustomed to, I'm sure I'll switch to something else, as I've always done.
  • Deepstack play requires greater skill than shortstacking, no matter the game type. Since cash play (at normal/deep tables) allows everyone to reload and maintain a deepstack, as opposed to tournaments where everyone except maybe the chipleader(s) are eventually forced to play short, logic holds that skill remains a much more dominant factor in cash games.
  • Luck will always play a greater factor in tournaments than in ring, particularly in the late stages where push/fold strategy comes to bear. That's not to say skill isn't important -- obv it is for the most successful players, but a losing tourney player can luck into one big score that will erase his losses and leave him profitable for a long time, while a cash player will take typically take much longer to recover from sustained losses unless he just goes on a super heater. There's just a lot more variance and BR volatility with tourney play.
  • On that note, MTT upswings, when they happen, tend to have a BR impact sometimes orders of magnitude greater than cash upswings, while cash dowswings tend to be orders of magnitude greater than tourneys -- not an absolute rule, it depends on factors like stakes and volume, but generally I think it holds for most of us smaller stakes recreational players. My single largest upswing came from a large MTT win followed closely by several higher-stakes SNG wins. Then I switched back to 50NL FR and after an initial surge I hit my biggest downswing ever where I dropped 30+BI's in a month. Over my poker lifetime, though, I'm still WAY up thanks to that big MTT boost, so I've essentially been a freerolling donk for years now. :) And my recent DON upswing has been more than twice that 30BI downswing (in $'s).
  • However the more skillful cash player, over the long term, will generally do better than the skillful tournament player due to the lopsided luck factor inherent with tournaments. A skillful player can run bad in tournaments for a very long time while lesser skilled luckboxes take down the huge cashes. OTOH skillful cash players seldom lose long term against weaker players. This is why you find amateur players more prevalent in tourneys and doing well compared to cash games. Many of the well known tournament pros like Hellmuth and Negreanu make for pretty lousy cash game players, but the better cash game players tend to not have as much trouble adjusting to tournaments.
 
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baudib1

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There are many tournament players who just suck at cash games. There are MTT players who make a living at the game who are total fish in microstakes cash games.

The vast majority of tough decisions in tournaments are preflop or on the flop. Cash games involve decisions with MUCH deeper stacks, so turn/river player become more crucial.

Probably the biggest problems tournament players have in adjusting to cash games are:
1. Turn/river play.
2. Positional dynamics
3. Being able to get away from good 1 pair hands postflop.
 
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