Heads Up Collusion?

Ok-- So I entered into an $115 dollar four person heads up SNG tonight. After losing to my opponnet I follow him to the final table... before the cards are dealt both players type, "gg" as if to say nice job making it to the final table" which seemed odd-- then to my amazement the player on the button insta shoves as soon as the cards are dealt for his entire stack-- the player in the BB snap calls. Button player shows A K off-- and BB players shows 7 2 off..... this is way to fishy-- who insta calls with 7 2 off!?!?! for 440 dollars? and they both greet eachother with "gg" when at the final table-- anyhow I have forwarded to support-- I recieved an email stating it was forwarded to a specialist-- then this email..


Thank you for your mail.
Based on a preliminary review of the situation you reported, a complete review of the players involved has been initiated. This will include checking on relationships, location and play.
Depending on our findings, the players may be contacted and asked to explain relationships and/or play. The entire process generally takes up to 2 weeks, but can be delayed if we don't receive prompt responses.
The poker specialist handling this review will contact you directly when the review is complete or if there are unusual delays. Thank you for your patience while we complete this process.

Regards,
PokerStars Support Team


thoughts? this is fishy right? will I be compensated for the 440 if they find collusion?

thanks,

Darren

Did you see any thing suspicious during the match, chip dumping, not playing one another? Would think they would have played HU longer than one hand. Keep us posted on the results from PokerStars.

while it may be collusion, you will not be getting anything other than you orginal investment not $440. You did lose fairly before any possible collusion took place. And in this case its probably too hard to prove collusion and the guy who won is going to keep the money.

Sounds really fishy to me, on more than one level!

Post hand history of 72 snap calling first hand in a winner take all sng an then i will agree with you.Still none the less you lost your match fair and square correct?

yes I lost fair and square-- its the fact people are teaming up and I dont even know if it was 3 against me at this point.. here is the hand history.
*********** # 1 **************
PokerStars Game #48042173295: Tournament #300488861, $110+$5 USD Hold'em No Limit - Match Round II, Level I (20/40) - 2010/08/12 2:24:30 ET
Table '300488861 1' 2-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: PompYouUp (3000 in chips)
Seat 2: maxv2 (3000 in chips)
maxv2: posts small blind 20
PompYouUp: posts big blind 40
*** HOLE CARDS ***
maxv2: raises 2960 to 3000 and is all-in
PompYouUp: calls 2960 and is all-in
maxv2 said, "gg"
*** FLOP *** [4c Jc Td]
*** TURN *** [4c Jc Td] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [4c Jc Td Ts] Q♠
*** SHOW DOWN ***
PompYouUp: shows [7c 2d] (a pair of Tens)
maxv2: shows [Ac Ks] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
maxv2 collected 6000 from pot
PompYouUp finished the tournament in 2nd place
maxv2 wins the tournament and receives $440.00 - congratulations!
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6000 | Rake 0
Board [4c Jc Td Ts Qs]
Seat 1: PompYouUp (big blind) showed [7c 2d] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 2: maxv2 (button) (small blind) showed [Ac Ks] and won (6000) with a straight, Ten to Ace

I wouldnt say its necessary, but since you offered, I would like to see the proof. Everyone knows collusion happens, but if you have concrete proof and can show it (of regular collusion, advertising for collusion partners) then I would very much like to see it.

I am a bit surprised at the certainty of your statement that PS knows of collusion and allows it to happen anyway. I have always been under the impression that the major sites will battle cheating at any level if they are aware of it. Can you show some back up to this as well?

BTW, I do agree with your HU 1 on 1 being the safest way to avoid collusion, but I am not convinced that 4 way HU is a ticket to collusion. Anyway, I am eagerly awaiting your stats on this.

Ok I'm confused how do you get collusion in a heads up match?

^^^THIS^^^^


There is no way you can have collusion in a heads up match!!!!
PERIOD!!! If 2 people play in a four man heads up there is a they play each other first so what one wins and then its a clean slate and you play HU if they decide to split any winnings I don't see anything wrong with that. If they had played it out they still can transfer half the winnings to the other play they are just saving time.

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think so.

BTW its OP first post go figure.

I dont understand any of it really. I'm new to poker but why would collusion actually be an issue? So two people are working together so in turn risking 100 dollars each to both try double up their money if one wins. If they don't, then they both lose their stakes.

I don't understand how it can be classed as cheating though..Obviously they will obviously be communicating and telling each other which cards they have but don't understand why this is a disadvantage to yourself? Only you know your cards and if your good at poker which i'm guesing you must be to be playing 100 heads up then overtime you will be making a profit at the game of heads up, so even if everyone else is working together, only you know your cards and know how to play your game. You will know if your beaten or not, surely...

If i'm wrong then sorry i'm new but just thought i'd add my 2 cents.

Knowing two extra cards, or that one player will not call you raise ect. is a huge advantage. This gives each player a positional advantage on the other players in the game as well as better reads of the cards the opposition can have. This is definitly cheeting.

Even if they were cheating, you lost in round #1 just like the other guy. There's no way you'd get first place money unless all three were cheating.
In that case, you have a group paying $345 for a 3:4 chance of winning $440. That is, each of them risks $115 and if you lose they each get a $31.67 profit (which is less than 3/4 of their investment).

You missed that this was a 4 player heads up game. There are only two people at each table. These "colluders" play against each other in round #1 1/3 of the time. At no point can they pass on extra hand information because they are not in the hand unless they are playing against each other.

You can't collude in a HU match.

One-on-one, a partner has no influence on the game.

I guess it's possible for two people to take a 50% stake in each other to minimize variance, but so what? *You* still have to win two games to beat them. Sometimes you play one of them, sometimes you play two of them. But at no point can they help each other out by colluding (chip dumping, passing on hand information, soft playing, etc.).

If it was a double-or-nothing game, yeah, those are ripe for collusion. But not heads up.

I was about to ask that myself.


To OP, you're not even in the match, you admitted yourself that you lost fair and square to one of the opponents in the 1st round, and those two players went heads-up at the final table. I don't understand why you are so mad.. unless you're just upset that you lost in the 1st round.

And people saying "gg" to each other before and after the matches is not strange by any means, lol. They were probably just congratulating each other.

But, let's say that they were friends, and they decided to go all-in the first hand... they still made it Heads-Up together, without cheating or colluding to get there.

No collusion... AK vs 72 still a race especially when AIPF.

Plus, look at this...

Attached Images

facepalm.JPG (67.1 KB, 173 views)

Huh? They're 75bb's deep.. how could this not look suspicious.

What does the sharkscope printout disprove? (Ability 93/100 is the same.. whatever that is.. or means??) BUT they appear to play in similiar games obv.

To the member mentioning about HU Sng players playing in teams... I get the idea here. Hmm... interesting.. never thought about that before (I'm pretty naive). At first when considering it I was thinking, "so what would be the advantage?" Reduce variance I suppose. Who knows, maybe it's the same guy playing on two computers,.. typing in 'gg' to himself as a joke.

Mmm.. doubt they'll be suspending his/her account anytime soon (nice profit there!).
Hey... maybe they're both actually Pokerstars team players... riggaments?

Yea, same here. Hadn't thought about it. Would also be to avoid reg wars where they are just hurting their hourly by spending time with no edge. Guess the deal would be to only chop when they meet heads up in the final, not splitting all profit from tournaments they play together...or they would also avoid confrontations in the first round? By flipping and sending back difference at the end of the week or w/e it saves getting support involved in a chop. Obv easier to do on FulllTilt with the automation.

Heh, how would that happen, exactly?

Collusion is an agreement, sometimes illegal and therefore secretive, which occurs between two or more persons to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding.

THIS DID NOT HAPPEN TO YOU, YOU LOST A 4 PLAYER HEADS UP SHOOTOUT TO STRONGER COMPETITION(evidenced by the sharkscope numbers).

In other words, you were not cheated in any way whatsoever, you lost fair and square. If these two people knew each other and didn't care who got the money, it had no bearing on your outcome in the SnG. One of them beat you and it doesn't matter if the other one was playing his match while sitting on his buddies lap.

I read this same post on another well-known forum and the OP got the same answers there. Apparently he had to hear it twice.

Here's a copy of an e-mail I received from Stars. I've received 3 refunds over the last year. Makes me feel confident that Stars has good security.Hello,PokerStars has become aware of two players who were working together in our Sit & Go tournaments to the detriment of other players. You were involved in at least one tournament with these players and as a result you may have been adversely affected.The players' accounts were closed and their funds frozen pending a thorough investigation, which is now complete. Fortunately the problem was identified quickly and they had only played in a few tournaments before the accounts were closed.In a case such as this it is our policy to confiscate the colluders' winnings or balances and to distribute them to the players affected by their actions in as fair a way as possible. To confirm your credit, log onto your PokerStars account, go to the 'Cashier' screen and click the 'History' button. Your share will be shown "Credit Purchase", followed by the amount of the credit.I regret that we will be unable to answer questions as to how your specific credit amount was calculated. Likewise, we are not at liberty to identify the specific games or players in question. Suffice to say that they have been barred from the site and you will not encounter them again.The integrity of the games at PokerStars is of paramount importance to us and we will not abide cheating or collusion in our games. We work hard to police our games and prevent such instances. In the rare cases where collusion has actually occurred, we make sure that any players affected are compensated appropriately.Thank you for your continued play here on PokerStars. Please do not hesitate to let us know any time we can be of help.Regards,MathewPokerStars Support Team

Am I missing something here? PS wont say who the colludes were, what games, or how the affected players are compensated. And this is supposed to make me feel confident playing there ? ?

They are both professional players. It makes a lot of sense for them to flip instead of playing since they most likely know each other quite well and don't feel like either has an edge. Saves time and allows them to concentrate on the fishes like the OP.

No collusion there obviously since they don't gain any edge against OP by flipping the final.

But then why did he play 72o? I mean he has to know he's way behind with that hand against almost any other hand. It's not really a flip...

Hand 0: 34.685% { 72o }
Hand 1: 65.315% { random }

Being heads up I too dont see it as Collusion. I played a guy in a 4 person Headsup shootout. This was at Fulltilt and he admitted that he tries to get in the games with a buddy and if they both make the final table then they just split it on a deal.... Not much difference

Obviously because they were flipping, i.e. they both agreed to shove any two cards.

They have every right to agree on flipping when they meet each other in a HU match since it does not affect the other players in the tournament in any way.

They probably have good reasons to do it. Mostly because it frees up time for them to play against fishes instead of each other.

Yeah, I was wondering what would be the advantage, too. Might as well just play HU 1 on 1 with others -- same result if you split the winnings. The only way it makes any sense is if it's the same guy.

On the other hand, some people just love shoving with 72. It's a kick when it wins.

When I first read your post, I agreed with you, but after thinking about it and reading some other replys, I changed my mind.
Even if they know each other, they still have to beat other opponents to get to the FT. If they decide to share the money, I don't think thats collusion. If you were all at a table together in a 6-man sng, and they were playing like that I would be upset.

It sucks that people are always looking for a way to beat the system, but it really impressive these shark scope facts you bring up.

I think I play a decent amount but Im only a one baord guy at a time and usually am spent after 3 or 4 MTT's in a day if I do well in 2 of them. and to see games near the 30,000 level really blows my mind and these dudes must be playing non stop.

Yea the guy going all in with the 72 doesnt look right and I cant fingure out why they would either especially at the buy in level yall are talking about. But im know these guys play in a different stratosphere then me as most people do but this may sound stupid, any chance the guy might have known the guy would only push that hard with AA AK KK QQ and figured he had as much a chance since both his cards would be live. I dont know. I really just hate the fact that besides having to play the player you have to play the group.

I dont think this is collusion. Full tilt has the option to "make a deal" and split the money.

Again for the latecomers who haven't read the whole thread...

Collusion is impossible in a HU match. Ergo, this was not collusion.

The sites won't even investigate HU reports in most cases, and flat out tell you so. When it's down to 2 players, they can only affect each other, and both have to be in agreement to do anything in the first place.

That's pretty much what i'm thinking. Two players who know each other well, basically dealing on the final table.. and it'd be pretty retarded trying to collude in a 4 man HU match.

There have been time where Im just plain goofing off at a game and pretty much so full of arrogance playing HU I don't know if its the feeling of invincibility or just that I don't really care if I loose, buyin being so small.

Don't get me wrong, this is a rarity.

But.

Im only doing this in a $1 or $2 game.

Point being, believe it or not there are lots of players out there who look at $100 or even $1,000 like I do $1. They have so much disposable income or are just plain smashed, this can be fun, for some.

Go figure.

And to think, i saw the thread title and all i thought was....oxymoron. Can collusion happen HU?!?

I would like to go figure this,..... if I could afford to...