Have you ever felt a table was being rigged?

#1 17th March 2009, 10:05 PM

I have often wondered how could a game site prevent a team of guys from stacking the table? Imagine this scenerio...a six person omaha pot limit table is being played. Four people live in the same dormitory/apartment complex...therefore each would have a different IP address. they could actually gather in the same room with wireless modems and sit around the same table deciding who was going to take the next pot...what their odds were and the chances of them hitting. By knowing 16 of the cards they could predict with a 30% accuracy the odds of any one hnd winning..furthermore as the comunal cards were dealt they could predict better odds of winning. How would any online poker site catch this???

#2 17th March 2009, 10:13 PM

It wouldnt be worth it, I mean if they get reported and are found to be softplaying or even connected somehow via msn or chat they would be banned. They would lose all their funds and probably ban any lesser accounts they have made that they transfered funds to, pretty massive loss.

It could happen though, there isnt really anything to stop them from doing it until they get caught and are permanently banned.

Im talkin pokerstars though, dont know what the policy on cheating would be on other sites.

#3 17th March 2009, 10:15 PM

This is from an old thread i maked when i suspected colusion.
If you read PS response u will feel alot saver.

Quote:

I was playing in a 10$ sng and this hand came up.

PokerStars Game #: Tournament #108377720, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2008/09/15 13:24:42 ET
Table '108377720 3' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: sindri_93 (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: rckyu (1490 in chips)
Seat 3: mick_holland (1480 in chips)
Seat 4: captain.zdc (1460 in chips)
Seat 5: Weed!T (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: Goingolfing (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: 1 (1570 in chips)
Seat 8: tswmatt2000 (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: 2 (1500 in chips)
mick_holland: posts small blind 10
captain.zdc: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sindri_93 [7h 3s]
Weed!T: folds
Goingolfing: folds
1: raises 20 to 40
tswmatt2000: folds
2: calls 40
sindri_93: folds
rckyu: folds
mick_holland: folds
captain.zdc: calls 20
*** FLOP *** [8d 6d Jh]
captain.zdc: checks
1: bets 100
2: calls 100
captain.zdc: folds
*** TURN *** [8d 6d Jh] 4♣
1: bets 200
2: calls 200
*** RIVER *** [8d 6d Jh 4c] 7♠
1: bets 100
2: raises 100 to 200
1: raises 100 to 300
2: raises 100 to 400
1: raises 100 to 500
2: raises 100 to 600
1: raises 100 to 700
2: raises 100 to 800
1: raises 430 to 1230 and is all-in
2: folds
Uncalled bet (430) returned to 1
1 collected 2330 from pot
rckyu said, "CHIP DUMP"
captain.zdc said, "lol"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2330 | Rake 0
Board [8d 6d Jh 4c 7s]
Seat 1: sindri_93 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: rckyu (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: mick_holland (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: captain.zdc (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: Weed!T folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Goingolfing folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: 1 collected (2330)
Seat 8: tswmatt2000 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: 2 folded on the River

So i e-mailed suport cause this kinda looks like chip dumbing and got this back in about 2hours.

Hello Sindri,

Thank you once again for reporting your concerns to us. Although we do
monitor the games for collusion, we always appreciate vigilant players such
as yourself reporting any strange or unusual play to us for review. I have
completed my investigation into the accounts of the players "1"
and "2".

The first thing that we look for in such cases is a relationship between
the two players. In this instance, they live in Georgia and New Jersey
respectively. They have never logged in from a common computer or internet
connection.

I then look for frequency of play together. I am looking to see if these
players seem to be seeking each other out. Although a high frequency of
play is not necessarily an indictment, it can be a harbinger of unethical
play. In this case, they have not played at the same ring game table any
time in the past month, and this is the first tournament that they have
played at the same table. There are also no other links between their
accounts that would indicate any kind of relationship.

With that said, the real question comes in the play of the tournaments. One
of the advantages of online poker is that there is a full record of every
hand, and after the fact, we can look through the hands with all cards face
up; as a result, cheaters cannot hide what they are doing.

I reviewed this tournament with all cards face up, looking for any forms of
collusion. I certainly understand how this hand appeared, but we will
occasionally see novice players get caught up in the moment, and indulge in
these "Ego" contests of incremental raises. Often it can be an indicator of
collusion, but on occasion, it's a case where one player makes a mini
raise, the next player makes another mini raise, and they just react to
each other..Basically, it is an ego display. That is clearly what occurred
here. Both players had reasonable hands, but ultimately one player was much
weaker and he did the right thing in folding ultimately. He was eliminated
a couple of hands later, which was well deserved.

Overall, given the lack of any previous play together, the lack of any
relationship between their two accounts, and the lack of any suspicious
play during this event, there is nothing to indicate that these two players
are colluding in any way. I will however place notes in both player's
accounts indicating this review and your concerns, and if any future
suspicious play is noted between them, there will be a record of your email
for reference.

As you can see, we have a lot of tools at our disposal which help us keep
our games honest and fair. In addition, the thousands of honest, vigilant
players who point out situations that merit investigation are an important
part of our arsenal. Thank you for doing your part to protect the integrity
of our games.

Even thou this wasnt colusion these replays allways make me feel so much safer playing PokerStars then any where else.

#4 17th March 2009, 10:29 PM

Man, now that was a response.

#5 17th March 2009, 10:49 PM

There is no doubt that this does happen. As far as I am aware there is nothing the sites can do to stop it. If each has their own account and the feed is to different IP addresses how could the sites ever know. Having said that unless the stakes are high can they really make enough money to justify 4 guys sitting around a table for a few hours. I suspect at the higher stake tables the other guys would cotton on pretty quickly and move away and are unlikely to play with the same guys again.

#6 17th March 2009, 10:50 PM

nice to see pokerstars in on top of things like that, hopefully the rest of the sites are just as competant. i don't think anybody could get away with it unless it was an inside job. the thought will always be in peoples minds, no posts will change that.

#7 17th March 2009, 11:06 PM

I 've known guys and girls here in Tn. that do just that, not always that many at a time, and sometimes they just sit around on the cell with each other. I'm sure it happens alot everywhere but it wouldnt seem to be a killer profit though because if it where then they wouldn talways be broke and the site would probably notice if they made to much. Just another rigged thread.

#8 17th March 2009, 11:07 PM

Okay popo... so 4 guys are going to sit in together at a 6-Max table? Possible but seems unlikely (if they were going to collude.. why would they do it with 4 of them on a 6-max table?... isn't that perhaps too many??).
For sure you'll get players colluding on tables, most often done via I.M. or even telephone. I was watching a guy play the other night (who I know from a poker forum, don't know him well but do know he took down the Fifty-Fity just recently and was curious to see what tables he was playing on with his recent bankroll addition), he was on .50/1.00 Omaha 6-max table and oddly enough, the exact same player was sitting to his left on both tables... even more odd was when I'd been railing this guy in the 50-50, this same 'other guy' was there railing too and then introduced himself as this guy's buddy from same hometown.
I watched the table a bit, to observe what they were doing (not saying anything in the chat). I considered writing into support simply for the fact that I felt bad for the other players on the table (they were both sitting fairly deep) but then thought, "What if they're not? What if buddy just managed to sit down on each of the tables, getting position on his buddy in hopes of phucking him over? What if it was just some friendly rivalry going on?" I only watched a few hands and then left but it did stick with me (obviously or wouldn't write it right now).
I'm sure you'll get colluders fairly often on cash tables but not so often in sngs (although I've seen and reported it there and had support take care of it pronto... which was great.. on Fulltilt). Personally I've never detected it happening against myself on a cash table (not to say it couldn't have been going on but I think I would've picked up on it, as would most half decent players).
Nice post re: Stars support above. For sure the sites do their utmost to take care of this stuff. I know the couple of times I reported players colluding on sngs, they were dealt with right away (I know this for fact because they accidentally froze the wrong account,... my friend's account as I was watching their game and the colluders were even bold enough to collude openly in the chat box,... support shut down my friend's account by accident (lol) but fixed that up pronto as well... in other case I'd try a player search on said colluders and never saw them on a table again).

#9 18th March 2009, 12:07 AM

I have suspected collusion on several occasions, but how can you be sure? I'm sure it happens more than we think. I don't think I pick up on it all the time. I do hate when I'm stuck on a table where 4 or 5 players are chatting constantly in a language I don't understand.

#10 18th March 2009, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monoxide

It wouldnt be worth it, I mean if they get reported and are found to be softplaying or even connected somehow via msn or chat they would be banned. They would lose all their funds and probably ban any lesser accounts they have made that they transfered funds to, pretty massive loss.

It could happen though, there isnt really anything to stop them from doing it until they get caught and are permanently banned.

Im talkin pokerstars though, dont know what the policy on cheating would be on other sites.

There was a case here in Port Elizabeth involving quite a few players (10+) all used to gather at 1 guys place daily and play off their laptops and when not together they would talk via msn. There are only 2 local sites in South Africa and the poker site that caught them passed the info onto the other site and they were all banned from both. I have seen a few of them online lately at both the sites so I presume the ban was about a year - not lifelong...pity!

How were they caught: online chat apparently and one of the pm's picked it up and so the investigation started.

#11 18th March 2009, 12:32 AM

I have seen problems on another poker forum. They dis banned a clan because of eledged soft play or chip dumping. With the use of MSN or Yahoo anyone can get a bunch of friends together and change the out come of a game.

#12 18th March 2009, 9:13 AM

This guy is rigged:

fr.jpg (http://www.cardschat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18623&d=1237360345)

He plays in the CAP games (30x bb), where you should have to play tighter due to lack of implied odds....

He is hands down the luckiest MFer I have ever seen.... it makes me puke in my mouth a little every time I think about him...

#13 18th March 2009, 9:54 AM

if you have doubt,you can just write compaints to the poker room.then its their to investigate.i think this kind of collusion do exist.but people doing that cant do it often.or they will be find.so i am not very worried about it.

#14 18th March 2009, 9:57 AM

bodog hands are obviously set up

#15 18th March 2009, 5:41 PM

When I first started playing I got invited to be part of an online chat through Yahoo at the same time as I was playing in a game. There were 4 people in the chat on the 10 player table, the first thing I saw was that all of them gave their hole cards in a message. If they did play vs each other they didn't do more than min bets.

I logged out of the chats and made sure I didn't play at tables with those people any more.

Oh and this was at the lowest levels of play. I'm sure it goes on at the higher levels too.

#16 18th March 2009, 11:57 PM

The same players playing and winning together at the same tables all of the time? Bound to get caught eventually. I'm sure it happens but as long as you're paying attention you won't get nailed by it too often. Leave the table if you have to.

#17 19th March 2009, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmoss8

bodog hands are obviously set up

nonsense

#18 19th March 2009, 12:28 AM

Yes, I have felt at times that tables are rigged. In fact, sometimes I feel like tables are rigged in my favor. Once in a cash game I was dealt pocket aces on my first hand. Someone moved all in and I called. They had pockets kings and I won the pot. I know there is a good chance of this happening but it still seems suspicious to me. Maybe the poker site did it on the first hand on purpose to induce me to play more. But I doubt my suspicions are true.

The example OP gave can certainly happen and unfortunately there is not much we can do about it without solid proof. My advice is to just look out for such suspicious activities and be careful. There are shady characters out there you just need to look out for them.

#19 19th March 2009, 6:39 AM

Everytime i get a bad beat i feel that way, now i know we all take beats and lose hands. Really a lot of the beats are hardly reasonable, and thats where the rigged stories come from. Well mainly my opinion, so take it or leave it.

#20 19th March 2009, 7:41 AM

Thanks for all your comments ...most of them seem to put my mind at ease..

#21 19th March 2009, 8:10 AM

in online games and in live games you have players cheating by

communicating with each other. the flagrant ones get caught.

the slick ones dont. this has and always will be a part of gambling

#22 19th March 2009, 8:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dank Hugh

in online games and in live games you have players cheating by

communicating with each other. the flagrant ones get caught.

the slick ones dont. this has and always will be a part of gambling

Yep, stuff happens Live and Online...that is just the nature of money, people always trying to get an edge to take yours

You just have to do the best you can to protect yourself by playing on sites that you have found do their best to protect the players (ie PokerStars) and staying away from the small fly by night poker operations. And if you are ever in a game that looks the least bit suspicious, leave--there are so many other games these days. Then report the game to security and let them look into it.

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