Handling downswings

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Kyle_13

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Dear fellow brothers,

Well first off I'd like to say hey to everyone as I'm new here and decided to come to the forums for some guidance and the next step in online poker, Little about me is that I play mostly on pokerstars and got introduced to the game by grandfather who has now passed away.

In his time poker was still not really known, Yet my parents stated he used to always come home with a bundle of cash and I suppose that is why our family is some what well off currently. I've been playing more Pub and Casino style tournaments and cash games then I found online.

I'm good at the game and study it a lot even print of hands and analyze my mistakes and where I could have handled it better. As they say you can learn to play the game within a few short hours but it takes a life time to master.

Problem is my patience when handling my BR and the types of games I should be looking at playing. My general rule is to have x100 Buy-Ins of the game I play. I would like to reach supernova and would like to earn enough to make a healthy extra income I know this will take time.

I'd like to build my BR up to $1000 to play 5/10c games with a Buy-in of $10 and make some money even if it was just an extra $20 a day.

Anyway a week ago I placed my first $100 I built it up to $150 then left it for a few days this was by a few Swift games on the 1/2c games with a Buy-in for $2, I switched to 50/50 and managed to move up to $200 and finally up to $360 via Hyper HU 1.50/3.50 games.

With a $360 BR I really liked the Hyper HU game styles and the swift, I thought to myself $350 = 100 Buy ins at 3.50 HU level. I Decided to play 20 games the results were 12 wins - 8 losses for 3.50 Hyper HU.

I thought if I went under $350 I'd stick to 1.50 if I was over $350 I'd move up to 3.50, Problem was after this run of 20 games. I hit a brick wall I suppose resulting in 17 straight losses. At first I didn't tilt towards the end my game play had dropped.

AA vs QK, Flop came KKQ
99 vs 22, 2 hits on river.

Same old tales we always hear, It was after this beat I decided if I lose 1.50 I'd go to 3.50, 3.50 lose to 7. 7 lose to 15. After the consistent double ups I lose entire BR. I'm not whining about my bad beats in fact I respect the players and the game enough not to take it out on others I'm just asking for some assistance in how others would handle this.

Did I move up too quickly? Got ahead of myself? Should have walked away at 4 or 8 losses? Playing the wrong game with too much variance? Any advice would be good and please no trolls. Cheers guys!

Regards,

Kyle
 
white_lytning

white_lytning

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I don't know enough about your situation but a few general comments.

1. Any "hyper" game is going to have more variance than a non "hyper".

2. Variance is part of the game that you cannot avoid. All you can do is look at your own play and see if there are places to improve. You need to look at more than just the results. Do you have a tracking program?

3. If your goal is to play 10nl then I suggest playing cash games to get there. Why practice hypers if you are going to switch to 10nl as soon as you can anyway. Come up with a better plan, its fine if that plan is to jump around to different games but understand that it may be harder than just focusing on one.

4. BRM is a personal preference that is based on your ability to handle risk. A 100 BI rule for 10NL is super nitty. Rethink this, is it really necessary? (if you really just lost $350 playing 3.50 sng it might not be so bad, and you should ignore this one)
 
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Kyle_13

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Sorry I'm still new to online poker, Tracking system? Sticking and mastering to the one game does make sense and I do better within cash games and I guess it does allow me to get up and leave when I need too.

Generally at the low level I would double my $2 to $4 then leave the table and reload a new table with only $2, As for BR I lost it when I went over my limit and not sticking to my plan as required. How is a player able to make money without a BR?

Deposit $100? and leave with $25 ???
 
Arjonius

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It doesn't matter what number of buyins you choose for your BRM guideline if you don't follow it. So either commit to exercising the self-discipline to stick with whatever you pick, or don't waste the time to set one in the first place.

BRM isn't just about having X buyins to move up. You also need to figure out what other factors matter for you, and how much weight to give each one at any given time. One is the state of your game. Let's say, for example, that you're playing NL2 and that your roll has reached $60, which is the 30 buyin guideline you are using.

What has your win rate been to get to $30? If you've beaten 2NL for say 10 bb per 100, you very likely have enough game to play 4NL or 5NL. But if you ground your way to $60 by being barely above breakeven over thousands of hands, you might be better of not moving up.

Or maybe you've already taken a couple of shots at the next level to see what it's like in preparation for moving up. How do you think your game stands up vs the opponents you've seen? You don't have a big sample to go on, but you do have something to help assess how ready you are.

Another possible factor is your level of comfort with having more money on the table. This is more emotional than rational. Some people aren't affected at all by moving from say $2 buyin to $4. But others aren't completely comfortable to varying degrees, possibly enough to make it smarter to take shots and desensitize yourself rather than move up despite having enough roll to do so.
 
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Kyle_13

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I've decided to take some time off and assess where I am currently, It is possible BR guideline might not be for me and I might need to find another way of managing wins/loses.

Seems that self-discipline is lacking currently, I'm very patient but almost 20 loses in a row can hurt even the toughest players and put them of their game. Could be that I'm not ready to move up and need to stay at the lower limits where I seem to do well instead of worrying about my next big move up in limit.
 
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Big_Rudy

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I don't know enough about your situation but a few general comments.

1. Any "hyper" game is going to have more variance than a non "hyper".

2. Variance is part of the game that you cannot avoid. All you can do is look at your own play and see if there are places to improve. You need to look at more than just the results. Do you have a tracking program?

3. If your goal is to play 10nl then I suggest playing cash games to get there. Why practice hypers if you are going to switch to 10nl as soon as you can anyway. Come up with a better plan, its fine if that plan is to jump around to different games but understand that it may be harder than just focusing on one.

4. BRM is a personal preference that is based on your ability to handle risk. A 100 BI rule for 10NL is super nitty. Rethink this, is it really necessary? (if you really just lost $350 playing 3.50 sng it might not be so bad, and you should ignore this one)

^^ Generally all good advice here.

It doesn't matter what number of buyins you choose for your BRM guideline if you don't follow it.

^^This part is SO true. You can have all the elaborate BR plans in the world, and if you don't stick to them it won't really matter. You see it all the time. Players come on here and say things like, "I had a plan for for BRM (bankroll management) and everything was going well, until.......(insert random reason why they are now broke). You've got to avoid that "until". Make a sound BRM plan and stick to it.

As for varience.... If you're varience-adverse HU Hypers are pretty-much the WORST thing you can play. Expect huge swings in your bankroll playing these things. If you're fine with that, you can see some substantial profits pretty quickly. You can, and will, also see some substantial losses pretty quickly.
 
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Kyle_13

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^^ Generally all good advice here.



^^This part is SO true. You can have all the elaborate BR plans in the world, and if you don't stick to them it won't really matter. You see it all the time. Players come on here and say things like, "I had a plan for for BRM (Bankroll management) and everything was going well, until.......(insert random reason why they are now broke). You've got to avoid that "until". Make a sound BRM plan and stick to it.

As for varience.... If you're varience-adverse HU Hypers are pretty-much the WORST thing you can play. Expect huge swings in your bankroll playing these things. If you're fine with that, you can see some substantial profits pretty quickly. You can, and will, also see some substantial losses pretty quickly.

Indeed in my time in playing the HU Hypers I noticed swings back and fourth consistently go up a bit, Down a bit and then back up again. I'm writing a blog on poker and my progression currently so I might wait to deposit $100 and work on the smaller cash games starting with 1/2c.

If I had stuck to the BR I would have been fine, But to deposit $100 and get to $360 in a few days is a learning phase in its self. As players I guess we can only grow and mature as we experience these as we do in life.
 
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Johniblayze1

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Yo,

Downswings can suck really bad in hu hyper turbos. I went busto while keeping a 50 buy in rule. So don't feel like your the only one out there that lost a roll. Since then I've grinded up to 20x what I started with & all the good variance caught up with the bad runs. I never chased losses like you did tho. You should only want to move up when you are on a good run not a bad one. If you can't win at the stakes your currently playing you should move down or take a nice long break and come back with your head on straight. It sounds like you hit a bad streak and kept moving up stakes and chasing your loses. This can bust your roll really quick.

If you choose to stick with hu hypers I will suggest you choose a brm in between this 35-50 & 50-75. What I mean by these numbers are that when you have 50 buyins for a lvl you play that stake and if you do run bad once you hit 35 you move down. A more conservative management plan can be to play at 75 & move down at 50. This will help optimize your winnings and keep you moving up in stakes instead of grinding it out forever in the micros.

Anyways, gl to u. I hope you hit a good run of cards to make up for your downswing.
 
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Kyle_13

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Yo,

Downswings can suck really bad in hu hyper turbos. I went busto while keeping a 50 buy in rule. So don't feel like your the only one out there that lost a roll. Since then I've grinded up to 20x what I started with & all the good variance caught up with the bad runs. I never chased losses like you did tho. You should only want to move up when you are on a good run not a bad one. If you can't win at the stakes your currently playing you should move down or take a nice long break and come back with your head on straight. It sounds like you hit a bad streak and kept moving up stakes and chasing your loses. This can bust your roll really quick.

If you choose to stick with hu hypers I will suggest you choose a brm in between this 35-50 & 50-75. What I mean by these numbers are that when you have 50 buyins for a lvl you play that stake and if you do run bad once you hit 35 you move down. A more conservative management plan can be to play at 75 & move down at 50. This will help optimize your winnings and keep you moving up in stakes instead of grinding it out forever in the micros.

Anyways, gl to u. I hope you hit a good run of cards to make up for your downswing.

Your correct I hit a bad run after I had a very good run from $100 to $360 and then attempted to obtain my losses back. I like the BR you have suggested and I shall give that a go. $350 at 50 would have been $7 and that is a level I feel comfortable with. Just starting off at online I was not sure how many losses I would take so I used a starting BR of 100 Buy-Ins.

I never thought about if going from 50 down to 35 it was time to move down a limit I do like the sound of that so I'll will give it a go. Money has never worried me as long as I have a few buy ins to support the losses.
 
T-Dubs82

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i typically do the same thing and drop stakes when needed. if i feel myself tilting, i do my best to walk away from table. go work out or go get drunk or something to take me away from the game
 
white_lytning

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Two more things that might help after reading some more of your posts.

Don't take the following personally, but based on some of your comments, I have a feeling its more than just running bad. Take some time off, think about the game, learn from other people. Read some of the theory posts and hand analysis. Try to understand why people do things or suggest doing things.


Sorry I'm still new to online poker, Tracking system?

Poker Tracker or Holdem Manger. A program to keep track of your hands and stats so you can monitor you game play. Get one play at least 10,000 hands and post stats for help about what your doing well and what your not.

Poker is a funny thing because people are so open to sharing the exact information they use to beat one another. Its out there, get it and learn from it.
 
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Kyle_13

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I've played the game more on a MTT and 6-9 man Ring level, HU is fairly new to me in that regard and I have a different strategy for the games I play.

I was using the report pokerstars hands to go through my cash table problems which I've now worked on, As they say if you don't know about it how can you fix it? Problem I had there was over valuing KQ, QQ I was in front but when it came down to the turn or possible river and I knew I had been beaten by watching what the player was doing I was not able to lay them down.

Now I can lay down QQ and even KK thanks to analyzing those hands, Sure all players have had that problem at some stage, I'm looking into the tracking systems now and writing up a new BR management plan for only cash games.

I suppose my next question lays in are their any good Management/HU books or resources I can use to improve more for online play, White I have a feeling you are very correct could be I'm playing a game that I feel I have beat but still very new too!

I'm going to go ahead and have a bit of a look around in the HU section.
 
Johniblayze

Johniblayze

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Sup Kyle,

If you like HU sngs, go to husng.com and download mercenary's free ebook. If you like hu cash games go to dueces cracked and watch prynraiding & Dog is Heads Up series.

GL to u
 
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