Guys, I'm below $20 and...

I was really careful with my br that's how I got it to last this long. But still, it's way down. I just didn't have enough to cover swings from the get. It's cool, I'm not really griping, I can save up from freerolls or find a way to deposit(but it's a pain in the neck at the moment)...

I'm just curious. Since my BR's now just a tad over $16(bad extended downswing), I'm wondering...

Should I maybe just play in SNG's for the moment? I've been playing in freerolls and play money to get my poker fix without touching my BR but I wanna at least try to rebuild it.

I was thinking that SNG's would extend the life of my BR win or lose, because I'd get to play a lot more hands for the same amount of money. Obviously I would prefer to win, but so would everyone and I know that. That's why I really just wanna get the most value from my last bit of money.

play the lowest buyin SNG's.Do not prefer to win, simply win. Your not going to win much when you have a mindset like that

Same problem here im down to about $7.45.

Just grind away at those low buy-in STT Sng's and watch that BR grow again

I have a little over 3k im a little low on funds any suggestions?

it's all about you...

If you look at my $50 blow out then you will see I blew out my $50 account over about 5,000 games playing ring games. I've seen a lot more volatility playing $2 SNG heads up. I'm running right now break even win/loss wise but I'm down $25. About $25 of the original blow out that went to PokerStars rake and the other $25 went to other players. In the new case all $25 loss has went to Poker Stars.

The reason I'm telling you my experience is you at 20%-25% rake you have to completely crush the games to break even.

Here is the basic out of 100 games:

Win 50: 1.80*50
Lose 50 2.20*50
Net Loss: $20

So if you win as many games as you lose then you will lose $20 per every 100 games played. To break even at $2 SNG HU you must win 55 games per every 100 played. That's roughly 1.2 wins per every loss or 20% more wins then losses.

These figures are from PokerStars and the rake is just crazy. FYI I don't know how to build a bankroll but trying to figure it out myself. Does anyone know a US friendly poker site with better microlimit games and good rake rates other then stars?

here's a tip:
$2 = 10% rake
$5+ = 5% rake

HU NL = high variability
HU FL = moderated variability

this is what i've done, its worked. $5-10 stakes, fixed limit hu. i can win nl hu's more frequently that I lose them, but not by much, probably enough to cover the rake. fl hu's i can win more frequently to easily pull a profit although every 4th game i play i get such bad cards it drives me insane. if you are willing to put up with the massive headache that are fl hu's, i'd do it. but let me say i'm not kidding - nothing gives me a bigger headache in all of poker than fixed limit hu's with bad runs of cards

I might depend on your strengths, but 1c/2c NL cash tables might be good for you, also. That's how I started with $10 on U.B and cashed out in a few weeks with $240.

I suggest the $2.20 satellites to the Hundred Grand. The 36 player and the hourly tournaments are both good.

You don't need to win a ton of chips, you just need to get into the money to get the ticket. Then you unregister from the Sunday $100k and take the $11T, which you can use for other games (tournaments only!).

What makes these things so beatable is that people play pretty poorly at the end. They play to get first place, when they should be playing to just reach the payout, as everyone gets the same prize.
If you can get close, you can fold your way into the money as people who *should* be folding knock each other out.

Once you have a healthy stockpile of T$, you can play regular S&G's to convert that back to cash.

There are $1.10 satellites as well, but you have to knock out twice as many people to cash. If you're looking to play more, I guess those might be better.

Personally, I think ring games are a better way to build up bankroll. But if you're a tournament guy, then stick to what you enjoy and are comfortable with.

What site is your br at? If at pokerstars I will second SavagePenguins suggestion.

I'm a tournament guy, so in a pinch these have done me fairly well in the past. If you are a ring guy, u must understand that $T are no good in ring games, so you have to convert them, via play, into real money. All in all you can get a lot of play from that $20 in those satellites to the hundred grand. Out of 36 players, 6 get seats to the big game, and 7th place makes $6 real. Odd as this might sound, aiming for 7th in your situation is not so difficult. I would guess that even with my recent downswing at any game, I'm still averaging about 6.50 to get 11$T. At one point it was closer to spending 3 or 4 bucks to get those 11 $T. You could spend the $T on a bunch of 2+.2 tourneys.

I haven't found any game elsewhere with as much upside as these.

BR's @ Ultimatebet. Thing is I got to the $100 the way MrSticker suggests but I had more money than this at the time, something around $30 so it wasn't as big a climb.

On the bright side I'm winning a bunch in play chips on Full Tilt Poker just playing in play chip tournaments and the occasional (is it ring w/o cash?) game. I keep placing 1st and 2nd + occasionally 3rd in the SNG's and MTT's I enter for play chips.

I'll keep looking on the bright side. Will enter the CardsChat freeroll at Full Tilt Poker later today(If I can just get the time right). With a little luck I can enter every week and start placing in the money soon enough. The only thing I don't like about it is entering and then not seeing a single familiar name. Last time Nickthegreek(sp?) was at the last table I played at but unfortunately he had given up by then.

It wouldn't be annoying if the people who join for the freerolls would at least read the articles cardschat provides and read the threads. Then it would be a lot more fun to play in, win or lose.

Ah but this isn't to gripe about the "freeloaders". It's to try and figure out what to do about my BR.

Maybe I can alternate between .01/.02 and SNG's. B4 I only played .01/.02. Maybe if I alternate I can handle the downswings in one or the other better.

Here's just a clip from a blog I have on another poker forum:

In March of 2005, I was looking at my account screen and noticed that there was $1.00 of real money in my account. I thought, where’d the hell did that come from. Wouldn’t you know, my co-worker had transferred me a buck. This guy actually was thinking, if he could get me hooked on the real tables and I lost the buck, I’d deposit and give him as a referring member and receive Bonus dollars from my deposit.

The penny table journey begins! Not having even enough to enter a $1.00 + .10 SnG, I started sitting at the .01/.02 NL tables with the least amount of money I could. It didn’t take too long and I was up to $10. I then played SnGs. But with me, I found that with the time invested in these tourneys, I was actually making more money in the ring games. Another, thing I noticed was all of my Bonus Dollars were gone—converted.

My next thought was that I need more Bonus Dollars. So, I concentrated on the $500 Bonus$ freerolls. I was now, instead of just making the $$$, finishing in the top 50. Eventually, I finally made it to a final table with everyone else having atleast 10x my chip stack. But, everyone one at the table was so intent on getting the big stack’s chips, they paid no attention to me. I finished 2nd. I strung together a few more final tables and finally I won one.
I proceeded to build my bankroll. In the fall of 2005, I decided it was time to move up. So, I was off to the .05/.10 tables.


Play hard play strong at the penny tables. enter in the Ultimatebet B$ Freerolls. enjoy the grind!

BTW I eventually built my br there to about $1400 - $1600 from that original $1.00 I cashed for $500, but have been in a tail spin there since. Look at Chris Ferguson's stuff about 0 -to- 10K on Full Tilt Poker. There is some great info on bankroll management and some rules he followed.

Good Luck!

I agree ... you need to know that there's no shame in doing the low-end and freeroll challenges; even the top players will lower their standards from time to time. You'll feel much better when rebuilding from scratch.

Just don't try to build it faster by choosing to enter tourney's needing a big share of your bankroll. Micro's and $2 SnG's should be your maximum considerations with a $16.00 BR.

I tend to stick with more freerolls and then build up to a nice $10 entry to a bigger tourny to work to bigger payouts.

Here's Daniel's advice, read and heed.

Daniel Negreanu – Tip of the Week

Broke Again?
Playing poker for a living can be a very unstable profession. Unexpected things happen all the time that can cut into your playing bankroll, leaving you shorter than you'd like - anything from an untimely losing streak to car repairs. You shouldn't be ashamed of an untimely losing streak. Again, you aren't the first person it's happened to, and you surely won't be the last. So, what can you do to protect yourself from going broke? It's simple, yet not so simple.

When I see a pro who regularly plays, say, $30-$60 playing $15-$30, I don't look at him negatively. In fact, I'm proud of him! Swallowing your pride in order to make the right decisions can be very difficult if your ego is your decision-maker. Rather than the pro risking going broke in a $30-$60 game, he gives up a little bit of profit until he has a comfortable enough bankroll to return to that limit.
Of course, while he's sitting in that $15-$30 game, he's bound to hear, "Why are you playing $15-$30" about 100 times. He has more than a few ways to answer that question. "I'm kinda tired today" ... "I'm leaving soon" ... "Been runnin' bad, trying to build my confidence" ... "This game is really good" … yada, yada, yada. Then, of course, there's the truth: "I just can't afford it right now."

Whichever way you choose to answer this question is irrelevant - it's really nobody's business but yours. If you feel more comfortable with an excuse, go ahead and be creative! The bottom line is that you'll be smarter than the others who are playing $30-$60 with their last remaining rack. They're hoping they'll have a lucky day and won't go broke.

Now, I was lucky that the players in my game were very understanding, but that won't always be the case for you. There are many people out there who are just waiting for you to fail so that they can laugh at you. Try not to pay too much attention to them; they obviously have some serious "issues" if they are obsessed with your results. Just keep your head up and work hard, and before you know it, you'll be back in the game you belong in. Oh, and don't be that guy who makes fun of other people's misfortunes. You may think that it could never happen to you, but that is just naive.



Did you catch that last there pokertime911.

donate, dude ... this guy is obviously in trouble. or save some more and buy an aston martin

I was not trying to make fun of this guy but spending months and months on a bankroll of fifty dollars I just feel that you shouldent just grind it out. Thats if you want to make a profit off poker. But if your just playing poker for fun and in the forum games im fine with that. Nobody can teach you to become a good poker player it happens over time. It dosent matter how much you read about poker your instincts and experience will guide you to victory.

Girl not guy . Also I think that lasting this long with such a small br has taught me something that a whole lot more money + gamble would never have taught me. It has taught me to have patience and self-control.

Don't get me wrong, it's cool that you have $3k. But I watched a lot of people get lucky and burn through their luck while I stuck to being patient with my little bit.

I guess I wanna be more like Chris Ferguson(he's one of the pros I look up to most). His first challenge is what put br management in my head in the first place. I just listened to his podcast on a loop. But it took cardschat to help me understand exactly when I should leave a table.

If you look at his second challenge, it took him a long time just to hit his stride and he had a lot of bumps in the road along the way.

He's one of the greatest pros of all time. I'm just an avid fan of the game + a proud amateur(and I should be proud as it just means I love playing). I really don't think I should expect an easier time of it than he had when he challenged himself to play for so little. I reckon $100 wouldn't really level the playing field in that regard.

I only started the thread to get some input on what strategy I should use to get the most from what I have left.

When I first joined the forum and introduced myself I made sure everyone knew my br was limited and that I wanted to learn how to manage it properly, but that I'm also not above freerolls or play money because they can be a lot of fun.

Look I have my whole life to play poker. I take that back. I have my whole life to play cards, because poker isn't the only kind of card game I love playing.

It's not that I don't have any gamble in me at all. I just choose when to use it. From the start I would play until I reached a goal I set for myself(in terms of winnings), and then play for a bit over that to treat myself to a tournament or game out of my reach(long term) to treat myself.

So if I can get myself over this hurdle I'll do that again.

Oh and don't poo-poo the reading. Some of the players here with really big br's and sound br management(so u know their br's are pretty darned big) read an absolute ton of books. The reading helps to guide any instincts or feel you have. It really can and does make you a better player. I'm playing better than I was when I joined(still not as good as I'd like to be but I'll get there). Reading helps a lot. Experience is important but so's the studying.

Oh and thanks for the input guys. It turns out the sites seem to have a lot of very similar tournaments.

I respect your imput ND but your playing for the inevitable which is that you will eventually lose that money if you keep grinding it. Poker is done by experience and no book or article can really make you any better. Also I came from a very similar situation in which I built my empire from 5$ to now over 3k. I have been playing for many months on this BR. I know anyone can win a tourney but it takes skill to win over time which is what I have accomplished. Mumbles99 Full Tilt Poker name

I'll graciously accept your respect if and when you ever learn the definition of the term. Yeah I browsed, and you've been pretty disrespectful all over these forums. Disrespectful and delusional.

When I made my earlier post I was clarifying my p.o.v. because I truly thought you were having trouble understanding where myself and others were coming from. I was mistaken.

Anyway, enjoy your $3k empire. How many yachts, small islands off the coast of Greece, and oil wells are you going to buy with that empire of yours?

See? I can be snotty and sarcastic too.

Almost every post by pokertime is about his new BR (3k in case you missed it) Enough already, find a friend to congratulate you.
It is going to take more practice to get it going in other direction N.D. and $16 might not be enough, but good luck. As far grinding meaning you'll go broke, that's ridiculous. When you do become a winning player grinding/BRM is what will keep you from going broke.

I would add that if you look at Ferguson's record on TopShark it shows he's down about $25,000 over the games it records. He lost a $25,000 buy-in. Benyamine also lost about 25k in that buy-in and a lot of other pros. David Singer was the winner.

I guess what I was trying to communicate is that building a bankroll is a lot easier SAID then done and you need to start with as much money as you can afford to lose to give yourself the best chances.

I'm just now finding a style of play that is really working. I focus on heads up and 6 player turbo ring games only. I have about 5,000-6,000 cash hands I've played and things are just now starting to click. I had about 80,000 play money games before I started playing for money and was winning single table SNG tournaments at about 65% frequency. I wouldn't mind playing single table SNG again.

Some of my play improvements have came from understanding more fully to do what works and not what people think works and from analyzing my game. You have to study your opponents and get inside their mind!

I can give some tips but you have to learn for yourself what works:

* Cash game psychology is a lot different then tournament psychology. I was a consistent winner on single SNG but when I came to cash tables I was getting busted left and right. In cash games people are looking for something to bust you with and can be patient to do it.
* Chasing is okay if done sparingly and wisely. Chasing is profitable because of the implied odds. Say you have an Ace flush draw and you know someone is playing a BIG hand that they just wont lay down. If you hit your flush you can take them for everything they have.
* Protecting your hand from a chaser requires skill. Some people try RAISING to protect from a chaser and that works if the chase is not likely but if I feel I have a good chase then building up a big pot early just makes for a bigger pot to take down. In fact, sometimes I'll build a big pot when chasing just to take it down when I hit. It sure makes folding the SECOND BEST hand more difficult.
* Position and situation is probably the most important aspect when playing. I read about position from DAY 1 but never GOT IT until I played a lot of heads up games. Position is very critical to bluffing.
* I advocate playing solid poker which is not always tight poker. Let me give an example, if a tight player will fold everything till he hits a monster hand and put in a big raise. Then he'll either pick up a small pot or get busted for all his money (most generally). I prefer playing loose with positional strategy because I don't feel the need to make a hand. Now from early position I play super tight but from later position I'll play loose and aggressive. This is why i don't play 9 player games because I just don't have the patience.
* You need to record your games from day 1. I recorded my games and found out that my biggest losses came when I had 3 or more people in the hand with me. This was analysis that was only possible because I recorded my games. Some people here made it clear I wasn't raising enough to keep callers out and with 3 or more people in my "big hands" someone was inevitably hitting something like a straight or a flush.

I must admit that you are right ND I have been a little cocky, im mostly just happy what I have accomplished in the past months and rid myself from the low levels of poker. I just have a different way of thinking when your low on funds.

sorry again

ND,
Nice posts...

I'd be working the smallest ring games and probably forget about SnG's for the time being. Picking up some extra br at a freeroll is not so bad either, just time consuming and frustratingly bad play to work your way through. Main thing is to have patience and practice br management as close as you can and soon you'll be building your br up. You got the right mindset for the task and that is the toughest part for people after a downswing.

Do you play the CC freerolls? They are a great place to get some br help because you're not against a gazzilion people, only a few hundred.

Best of luck to ya!

Apology accepted.

Thanks again guys. Oh and I only played in the Full Tilt Poker freeroll which is considerably larger than the Ultimatebet one. I fell asleep after registering this week for both, because I'm used to the FTP one being earlier in the day and on Saturday + playing later at night in general.

I placed 69th in my sleep for Ultimatebet which might be a good indicator of how well I can do if I manage to stay awake.

Oh was gonna say, most of the big name live pros are down when it comes to online play. The online game seems to have changed an awful lot since the likes of Lindgren started multi-tabling about a decade ago. They seem to be trying to find the right online strategy + style. I figure it evens out since a lot of folks get really cocky about their online play and take their money too high up in live games.

There seems to be a trickle up theory to poker, heck life in general. So they get it back. Just not online.

Oh yeah, I read somewhere that they get paid to play, win or lose. The ones on Team Full Tilt supposedly get around $100k just to sit and play. They're kind of like famous shills. Or in the case of the ones who mostly just play in the really big games, side show attractions. It's kind of like going to the aquarium and watching the sharks swim in the tank. Kind of...

N.D. I too play at Ultimatebet, but I recently opened an account at Pokertime. They give you $10 just for opening. If you win & want to make a withdrawal, you will have to earn enough points and make a small deposit. I started with the $10, and have been fortunate enough to get my br up to over $500 in a couple of months. I made a small deposit and cashed out some winnings. It's worth a shot. If I had your email, I'd refer you.

The problem with pokertime right now is that they are going private. (?) Not really sure if that means an eventual break with microgaming or not. But for now they don't have hardly any games up. No ten player tables at the low levels and very few tournaments. So their ten bucks is almost worthless. You can find a 6 nl player low level buy in but forget about limit games where most new players should play. Yes they do still have the cheapest sit n gos on the planet and if you play there long enough you could make a bankroll.

Okay so I spotted some major leaks and also what put me into a spiral...

Long story short, my biggest weakness is being stubborn. I'm working on it.

A quick reminder to myself and all, observation is your cheapest and best weapon. Never underestimate the power and value of reconnaisance.

Now if I can just get the hang of shutting out distractions...

Okay so I'm no expert, and recon might not be your best weapon, but it is very valuable .

Play low buy ins, you probally can beat the high stakes but the varience for you with such a small roll would be too high, so tighten up that lip and play