Getting "priced in"

Switch was making a joke.

And Philber is right, in the BB you are only last to act pre-flop, you will be out of position for the rest of hand.

If you limped with for instance 7s/2c in a 6 way pot from the big blind and the flop comes out 7d 2d kd. now what? you have commited up to 20% of your stack and are now out of position you can lead but with that many limpers anyone could have anything. Is two pair strong enought to bet? A reasonalbe 1/2-3/4 pot bet will almost for sure get you pot commited and a possible made flush or higher two pair or even a set.

When player talk about position they talk about in reference to post flop not preflop usually (ie. late, midlle, early). Position matters most post flop. If you shove all in position is no longer a factor as there is no additional betting.

I hope I didn't ramble to much...

Re read it...........must be 5 not 3 callers and the 20% is the MAX and we are talking about preflop.....you need to re read the post

Hand #56310740-17 at 315pmFreeBD-190 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Started at 22/Aug/08 15:40:44

nascar20048 is at seat 0 with 0 (sitting out).
megfogtum is at seat 1 with 6595.
quietjosh is at seat 2 with 1190.
trnyplyr is at seat 3 with 1875.
Davemlaw is at seat 4 with 960.
saladfinger is at seat 5 with 1655.
Cowboy8112 is at seat 6 with 4240.
nedmun02 is at seat 7 with 1700.
billgerr is at seat 8 with 1250.
GARY022 is at seat 9 with 1395.
The button is at seat 5.

Cowboy8112 posts the small blind of 15.
nedmun02 posts the big blind of 30.
megfogtum: -- --
quietjosh: -- --
trnyplyr: -- --
Davemlaw: -- --
saladfinger: -- --
Cowboy8112: Qd 5h
nedmun02: -- --
billgerr: -- --
GARY022: -- --
Pre-flop:

billgerr folds. GARY022 folds. megfogtum calls.
quietjosh folds. trnyplyr calls. Davemlaw folds.
saladfinger calls. Cowboy8112 calls. nedmun02
checks.
Flop (board: 8c Qh 6h):

Cowboy8112 bets 150. nedmun02 folds. megfogtum
folds. trnyplyr folds. saladfinger folds.
Cowboy8112 is returned 150 (uncalled).

Hand #56310740-17 Summary:

No rake is taken for this hand.
Cowboy8112 wins 150.

This is an example, I wont usually play Q5 o, but I was getting 5 to 1 hit a Q and took the pot

Who was this directed at? I said a 6 way pot which is equal to 5 limpers and you.

This is basically a delayed steal, what do you if you are called? This hand could turn into a implied odds spew.

I <3 glworden's post.

Cowboy-that is such a bad example. That has nothing to do with what you are talking about and is a completely standard big stack call. Especially when you have to call 15 to win 135 or 9:1 on your money. But you are not risking 20% of your stack. Heck, you're risking <1% of your stack to make that call...standard all the way through and has nothing to do with risking 20% of your stack with a poor hand OoP.

Try again, plz.

Not going to criticize your play here, but this is nowhere near the parameters you said you were willing to go to in your original post. It's easy to call the 15 from the small blind. 15 is only .36% of your 4225 stack. That's POINT 36, or one third of one percent. You are second chip leader and have some leeway.

Yes, your lead out post flop bet is basically a steal attempt. What kind of re-raise would you call here? Are you just going to bet and fold, or chase further with your weak kicker and worst position?

I don't think your play on this hand is bad, but it's not the scenario you posted about. Even if you were to bring out an example where you hit the lottery hand, though, one result does not validate your approach. In fact - results never should. A playing decision is right or wrong based on eV, not on whether the outcome goes your way or not. I think it's silly when people rabbit hunt, find their miracle would or wouldn't have come, then say they were right in folding. They were right or wrong before the rabbit, regardless of outcome.

I don't think you're really here to learn, because nothing is getting through to you. Why do you think every single poster is trying to help you see your errors while you simply restate your theory? You're kind of getting it half right. Pot odds are important and always a consideration. But systematically ignoring all other factors and calling with a poor hand in worst position is rarely a good idea. Call with your 27o. The flop comes 772. FullHouse! Did you make a good play?
Gary

I'm not up on the computer jargon. What does <3 mean?

it is a heart as in "I love"

would you forget about the 20% for crying out loud.....thats the MAXIUM I would be willing to risk. READ THE POST!!!!!! or just stop replying to it

getting cranky

You keep saying that but haven't actually answered the questions that has been posed to you. You keep thinking we don't understand. We are pushing back with examples of when your strategy is a bad idea. If you want to revise what your op said then do so but don't keep saying "re read my post" as if that is an intelligent answer to legitimate questions.

and if you have not hit you fold up.....come on people this is BASIC stuff here

you know what cowboy, and bear with me on this one since it isn't finalized and im not sure, but i think just maybe, and its a strong maybe, that people may have realised your strategy sucks

p.s good luck next time you limp q,5 for 20% of your stack and stack off against a,q

what is hitting, is two pair enough on painted board, top pair weak kicker?

Saying "if you have not hit fold up" is like me telling someone be aggressive. It is too vague to be meaningful.



I know I know, re-read your post.

Ok, I have received an email about this post, I understand. The Author is 100% correct. Im sorry I have conffused you guys. Disreguard this thread

with a good hand the more ppl tht call the less chance u have of winning with a bad hand it seems even less likely u would win and then u have the prob of being 1st/2nd to act with no info and the almost certain knowledge ur way behind and have to bluff with junk so ur 20 per could become a lot more a lot faster an still go in the muck being priced in is fine if u have at least playable cards but junks junk esp 4-5 handed

Well, Cowboy - we don't want to disregard this thread because it got us thinking and discussing. I've learned something and it sounds like you have, too. You started to sound a little beleaguered, but I sure hope you don't take anything personally. I for one welcome your posts, and though this might have felt like a rough experience for you, I hope you post again. If you say something that people have an issue with, it's only because they want to debate the subject - it's not an issue or an attack on you.

If in fact you've come to understand the validity of the responses and that your initial strategy has some problems with it, then you have benefited greatly from this thread and I'm really happy, for your sake, that you posted it.

I want to assure you that there is not one little bit of animosity towards you and that you're a welcome participant. I learned something from you. It was a challenge for me to keep my head clear and stay on subject in light of such strong opposition.

Please do us a favor. If somebody has e-mailed you with such a convincing argument that it's changed your mind, please share that e-mail with us. I'd really like to see the argument laid out in a way that you eventually found compelling.

Best of luck.
Gary

Gary,

Oh no...........not at all. and yes I still post. Like I said earlier........This is exactly what I was looking for. Its the feed back and mind sets of other players that we all need to improve our games.

I am a gambler and take risks most players wont. However, If someone reads this thread and sits down at a table, gets delt a Q3 off and goes a head and calls the 3 times the big blind bet because they see that 6 other players are in the hand, and the flop comes 3Q3 and they end up cashing........then thats a good day for them and me.

The whole point of the thread, and yes I worded it very bad, was to get players to think about more than their hole cards. Poker has many dimensions and one dimensional players well not fare very well in the long run. Best case scenerio: You win the hand AND get people thinking you are a "loose" player and that may help you in later hands.

No real disagreement. All valid points. Mixing it up has its merits. Confusing table image is important. My only problem was the 20% and the notion that consistently playing this way is statistically valid, because it's just not.

I'd still be interested in knowing how your e-mailer worded things so that he convinced you while all of us couldn't.

By the way, most of my early posts were similar theories where I WAS WRONG and it took me a little gumption to get over that and adopt a more analytical approach. That's not to say that you can't be creative, because there's lots of room for creativity in poker. And it's also not to say that I'm not happy when my screwball moves pan out because of a miracle board. In the short term, I'll take luck over skill any day. But in the long term, skill prevails.

Which is why I don't really see poker as gambling. It's simply applied statistics. Over the long run, probability is very predictable and statistically correct play is bound to be profitable. That's not the ONLY element. You also have to have the skills to be able to win with the worst hand occasionally. But CALLING when the stats are against you is a hopeless strategy.
Gary

Is this thread an epic level

What's the message that you got? You don't have to say who its from, but I want to see how they worded things too.

Oh and by the way, just because everyone thinks you're wrong, doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means you haven't pushed hard enough. That's how it worked for me anyway



Or you could just be wrong.

and the vast majority of the time, someone will help you end your tourney early....

How many posts are on this site where someone asks "Did I do the right thing?? I had K5 offsuit there were 5 people in the pot, I was BB and called it....the guy gets a piece of piece of the flop ends up all in somehow..and still loses to Ax..........I think situations dictate when you call, the WHOLE situation, 2 7o just doesn't excite me enough to be that situation to call 10 to 15 times BB first hand of a tourney.

Ok, let me say this a different way, and take the scenario out of the mix.
during a tournament,or even a cash game, PREFLOP. if you are in the BB SB or on the button. and 5 or more players have called either the blind or a raise (the LIMIT for me is up to 20% or 1/5 of my chip stack it is very rarely that high) You should CALL. what your hole cards are do not matter at this point. you want to be in monster pots. if you miss the flop you fold. Now think about this people how many times are you in one of those 3 positions when this has happened? not often. any chips you loose you should be able to recoup with tighter play. but do not miss these rare but golden opportunities when they do present themselves.
I hope this clears it up for everyone

it's just funny because you said you got an e-mail and understood that you were wrong, but now you're back to the original premise. Oh well.

^ agree with glworden. My mistake, I thought you weren't just an ignorant stubborn idiot who doesn't know when he's wrong. Can't you listen when 20 people ALL disagree with you? I'm not wasting my time here anymore.

Don't listen to Cowboy's point here. It doesn't make any sense.

ok i took your point on board in a session tonight cowboy and these 2 hands came up

I had 8,4 in the small blind and someone raised then 4 people called, so i called 19% of my stack preflop, thats ok right?? I then proceeded to stack off on a 7 high flop ldo, but i know i must not be result orientated

The second hand however, i had pocket aces on the bb and someone raised in front and 5 people called, when it got around to me, it would have cost me 22% of my stack, so i folded, is that right??

well the emailer was right, 1 dimentional palyers will never understand the concept and I need to let it go

LOL!!

(sorry mods, i know you hate these posts....but....what more can be typed?)

I don't see where this applies to your original post.....I'm not sure that there is ANYONE here who wouldn't make that call....I'd like to know if you'd have called if Saladfinger had bet 810 chips.

If you would have, I'd LOVE to meet you in a game.

Just completing the big blind is NOTHING....look at your chip stack.

No, if he bets I lay down. Now if nedmun raises to 810, and I get at least 4 others for a total of 5 to 1, I call because now its a 5k pot and only costs me another 660 chips. Wouldnt you call 660 to get into a 5k pot preflop?

inspirational thread

I am finding this thread extremely interesting. There are a lot of things to learn really.

Is it normal for the crowd to be so hostile though? And to a relatively new member?

But I do like thinking about hypothetical situations where family pots can offer special circumstances.

Another question I have is sort of philosophical... If NLHE poker is ONLY (or even primarily) about statistics then why is it so hard to code a winning NLHE strategy computer program?

And next... to what extent do non statistical factors in NLHE strategy play a part?

To put it more to the point when would "who you are playing with" matter enough to change "when you should bet" like the example of the early freeroll, or the 05/10 cent ring game at the nursing home.

Of course, I don't know why I might wade in here and risk being called an idiot.

love,
cAPS

For what it's worth, I would not make that call with ANY two cards. In many circumstances I would just let me $30 blind go. With 5:1 odds I would want two cards I felt would offer me on average a 20% or better chance at winning.

Maybe something like Q9s+ A9o+ 77+ and the like... IF I was feeling frisky.

love,
cAPS

They are not being "rude" per se, They are set on their convictions ans I understand and accpet that, I am set on mine, They understand and accept that....put it is a poker playes way to "one up" the other player because noone of are are willing to just "SHUT UP ABOUT IT"....lol