Gambling Question

Hi Everyone,
I’m new to this site. I play low stakes online hold’em and some home games with friends. I am also a psychology researcher and I plan to start a study about online texas hold’em sometime in the New Year. Although my study will examine the predictive aspects of problem gambling, I would also like to acknowledge the positive aspects of the game. I believe there is a huge skill component involved in poker, especially compared to other forms of gambling. I know that there are players out there who are consistently winning, and make a sizable living playing poker.
My questions to everyone are: What does it take to build one’s skills as a poker player? What types of behaviours help prevent a gambling problem when it comes to poker? Just to be clear, these questions are for general interest sake and will not be part of the actual study.
Thanks,
Kevin

You know what prevents a gambling problem...it's not having enough money to support your addiction. But seriously some behaviors that help prevent a gambling problem is how well you can handle stress and the stress of losing a big pot or a very bad beat. I know i heard phil hellmuth talk about this once on a poker show on television, that "zipher" (i dont know his real name but i know his poker nickname) takes a break when he had a bad beat or is not doing so well and he does this by going outside for a smoke. I think this behavior is good to prevent a gambling problem but not really good for you physically because if you play poker a lot you'll know there is a lot of stress involved while playing poker. There will be a lot of bad beats and there will be times when you think you are the unluckiest player in the world. You'll do something reckless like going on tilt and this is what will start a gambling addiction. You think you can make it back and then you start losing more and more and then you'll start playing in games that are beyond your financial means and then you'll just be digging yourself in a bigger hole. I suggest if you play online poker to just take a break from the computer. I sometimes forget this and i'll keep losing more and more money but when i do good i like to take a break before i lose all my money. If you can afford it you might want to buy one of those stress balls that full tilt poker sells in their stores.

As far as your first question, the only way to build skill as a poker player is to...play poker. And play it a lot. You have to dig into the deep aspects of the game and learn it in and out. Be able to pay attention to how your opponents play certain hands certain ways. How they bet compared to what the flops are or how action was before them. The only way to attain this sort of knowledge is by experiencing it over thousands and thousands of hands.

As far as the gambling problem...I think that is more of a psychological thing. A lot of the problem gamblers I know, aren't just problem gamblers... they are problem drinkers, users, etc. Gambling is just another "drive" for them. Many of the people that I consider real gamblers know how to keep things within reasonable limits and can keep to a bankroll management system.

If you have to get into a game or got the feeling you missing something by not playing a game. Then you might want to check into GA

Cant say how to be a good poker player , I have not gotten there yet. I think i am an ok player. Mostly I pay attention to other players, their betting habits, cues from them to what hand they may have. Most pros have a diffrent way they play. It mostly what work best for you and knowing the odds of your hand and predicting if you can beat the other players hand or bet like you have the nuts .
What keeps you from having a gambling problem with poker is you. some people will have a problem no matter what . they have an addictive personality , if not poker it would be lottery or bingo. If a person does not have a problem they are not going to develop one from playing poker.
I dont put money online and i only play tournaments at friends or club . All the places I play only play two games so I can never spend more than I wanted to .

I agree with this post but I'd also say you have to study alot, read books and articuls, belong to poker forums, and review your play. Some others would say you need to invest in poker tools like HUD and calculaters.

PM me I am working on a similar study, have a PhD in Social Sciences. No doubt you will find very quickly that 'gambling' is a bad word among serious poker players here and elsewhere; I suggest you get away from it ASAP. Otherwise you will start the Luck vs. Skill debate all over again. Please search the threads here for all the previous studies that have been conducted (poorly) at CC.

My take on the first part about being a good player. You have to look at it at the most basic level. The object is to win the most chips as you can. Good players do this by making the best decision for each situation that comes up. Because there are a limited amount of variables good players see the same situations over and over and capitalize on them. They use strategies that attack weak points in other players decision making.

I think you are giong to have trouble defining exactly what a gambling "problem" is. Its a subjective term. That needs to be done before your second question can be answered properly.


I do have some thoughts on gambling and poker. I think all poker players have to have a little gamble in them. Whether its a problem or not depends on who you ask (or if they are winners imo). For some the gamble is the only reason they play, for others its an unfortunate part of the game. Players kinda vary from those two extremes. I don't think its logical for poker players to avoid gambling. They want to edge on the side where they are the favorites but imo its still gambling. Its a part of the game that we all have to deal with.


This.

I agree that those will help you a lot, but they are not absolutely essential to becoming a good poker player. Anybody can read 100 poker books, but do they know how/when/where to apply that knowledge. You really only learn that by playing. I'm not saying that poker books don't help at all by learning concepts(hell I have read dozens), but just that they aren't the deciding factor in whether you will become a decent poker player or not.

Your other two points were great: belong to poker forums and reviewing your own play. As far as the forum, it isn't just belonging to one, but participating in it...Post hand histories, review others, and just soak up all of the information that is in front of you for no cost. Along with that, go back and review some of your hands after each session. If you have tracking software, many times you can flag hands for later review, so if you thought something was peculiar about a hand, go back later on and check it out. This is the only way you are going to plug your leaks is by finding what they are after you are done playing

"I know that there are players out there who are consistently winning, and make a sizable living playing poker."

Phil Ivey say's that only a very small percentage of poker players make a living out of it ..

"My questions to everyone are: What does it take to build one’s skills as a poker player?"

Phil Ivey says just playing the game an attain information from it.. I think he also says something about learning the basics of pot odds ect ect.. also for reading and if you really want to get better faster with just playing allot, I would read "The theory of poker" By David sklansky .. Use it as a reference book also ... But make sure after you have read this book that you don't apply it to play money cause you won't be able to make sense of the book lol.. I'm not knocking play money poker cause every game is different and you can get really good at any variation of poker and play money poker is just another kind of poker .. I personally can play play money poker very well and it has helped me play against aggressive players on real live money tables without getting run over

"What types of behaviours help prevent a gambling problem when it comes to poker?"

Bankroll management plan and simple.. You can add that good excursive healthy diet and making sure you spend more than half your time with family and friends outside of poker ..

lol. Nice Phil Ivey quotes.

ty

I'm one of those people who make a significant amount of money from this game.

Essentially, in order to be good at this game, you need to be rational. If you believe in luck, magic, ... you're in for big trouble. And the reason poker is hard is that a lot of your short term results are driven by luck, so you get fooled by that and rationalize your magic thinking by using short term results as justification.

The actual skills you need to learn are details compared to this essential quality of rationality.

BTW, i think it's good things that religions overwhelmingly frown upon gambling. If you're gullible enough to believe in one or several gods, you should not be gambling because you're obviously too likely to fall for magic thinking. Atheists should not have that kind of problem.

Please make that the topic of your research and establish a strong correlation between religiosity and problem gambling.

I hope this was a joke... If not, Then iam assuming since u have the right to say this, then I have the right to say thats the STUPIDEST remark youve ever made on cardschat.. That ive seen, obv with your above comment, you could possibly top urself. BTW if you believe that truly then great for you, I personally dont though and I now feel 10x dumber for even bothering to read your response

I am a successful small stakes player that rarely invest over $11 buy-in and primarily play tourneys.
I have many friends in the poker world that could make a profit,but they don't and almost always is because they have no self control.
They get a win and immediately play for higher stakes until they go broke.
In over 6 years and almost 30k in profit (spread over several sites) and I have never had to deposit because I broke my bankroll,with self discipline being the main reason for my success.
As far as skills to be successful,I dont think there are any short cuts,you must play and learn all you can and then have the self control to not blow your money that you are successful in making.

Gl with your study next year!



Snow

It is not a joke. My avatar and my custom title should make that obvious.

Common sense is overrated. Usually it just means prejudice. I would never pay for that.

I'm sorry if I offended you by questioning your beliefs. I just don't think that beliefs should be respected in any way. I know it's a common custom in our societies, but i think it's wrong. Opinions that you are willing to back with reason and facts deserve respect. Groundless beliefs don't.

Blehhhhh......thats what ur "custom title" means to me because I dont speak that language...

As to the rest of what u said. Bleeehhh because I dont respect it as it is groundless and without fact or reasoning..

Edit i wont comment further as this is a poker forum not a church.. My beliefs are mine.. I am purely not interested in yours.. So as to keep this civil, I will now shut up on the topic

Neither god nor master. It's the anarchists motto.

And you should really try learning foreign languages. It opens your mind.

I belive there is a lot of work behind sucess. Thats probably one thing that a lot of beginners fail to recognise. They just think the winning players win cause they have talent for it.
Another thing is knowing your own skill. If you do know your own skill, then you can choose to play vs players who you think you have an advantage against, or you can chose to play better players, just for fun.
I think thats what most losing players do, they just play for fun.

Belgosuisse you give fellow atheists such as myself a bad name because of your elitism. No where in this topic did anyone say anything about religion but you use it as a way to attack other people beliefs. You have no right to attack what other people hold dear to them whether you think its a rational belief or not. No one came to you and asked for you religious opinions. You go out of your way to try to prop your ideaology up on a pedistol, while at the same time belittling others'. You use the same kind of faith and elitism that you critisze others for having. I was going to PM you but then I realized it might be better to just post it here for all to see. I want to make it clear that he in no way speaks for all atheists. He goes out of his way to get people upset and because of that should be ignored. I will try to make this the last I comment about it because it is a poker site.

Sorry, I'm going to somewhat back BelgoSuisse.

I don't think he intended to provoke something as serious as what's about to blow up into a fiery inferno.

If put into perspective. Look at what religion can do to some people who live in under developed countries. It can start wars. Religion is a really touchy subject and I don't want to go too deep into it.

I personally do not practice any sort of religion. Too many different gods to choose from (especially in Egypt). I actually feel uncomfortable around "Religious-Fanatics", those who try to impose an image and try to get you to join their Church, Synagogue, Temple, etc. By marring you with what could be portrayed as religious propaganda.

Maybe there is a God. Just because I do not study religion, or don't go to worship anything right now does not mean I do not believe there can be a greater power. There may be, there might not be. I personally am on the fence with this one.

One thing I AM a firm believer in is Karma. What you do unto others will be done unto you.

Somehow, every monthly thread starts going in a downward spiral after any mention of Politics or Religion.

I agree, the comment made was quite forward, and was wrong.

The point I see that he is trying to make is that the word gullible isn't in the dictionary.

The fool who just went to m-w.com or looked up gullible in their own dictionary. Is exactly that, gullible. If you are gullible you are susceptible to believing in magic, luck, that your girlfriend was at home all day by her self while you were at work and no one came by and that condom wrapper on the floor was mine.

Gullible players, those that pay us off when they try to catch their gut shot are always crossing their fingers "It's coming! It's coming!" Those are the players who are so simple minded they don't know anything other that what you may or may not tell them. Some people are born into religion and are forced to follow the religion of their parents, regardless what their own beliefs may be.

Hopefully I did not offend anyone with this as it was not intended to, just my personal insight and trying to put out the fire before it starts to blaze.

EDIT: and after I read it I still have no idea what I was trying to say.

One way to keep your poker playing fun and controlled would be to not deposit and only play freerolls to build your bankroll. Also is you like to visit the casino sometimes, have a set amount that your going with and once its gone leave.

you sound like your a sitting duck at the table .. No offense

I'm sorry but i think my post was exactly on topic. OP is a psychology researcher trying to figure out how people can develop the skills to become good poker players and what leads to problem gambling.

In my expert opinion as a significant winner at this game, the primary factor is not practical skills, it's your ability to see through the magic cloud of short term luck to discern the rational patterns that will make you a long term winner.

And rationality versus magical thinking is obviously an issue that is heavily correlated with religiosity. All religions do require faith from their followers, don't they? And given that OP is a psychology researcher, I think that that correlation would be an excellent topic to research.

In short, my post was strictly on topic and not in any way a pointless derail.

I disagree. Faith is an opinion, and opinions can be attacked. Of course, it's a little unfair because opinions that are backed by facts can defend themselves while faith can't. But that's not MY problem.

This is the guy at holiday dinners that everyone tries to ignore...

Two quotes of the same message of mine, neither with any relevant comment and both mildly offensive.

Can I ask you what offenses you in what i said above? That I called people with religious faith gullible? It's not an offense. It's a pleonasm. Religions do teach that gullibility / faith without proof is a quality, don't they? It's the whole point of John 20:29, isn't it? Either you do believe that and you should rejoice when i call you gullible, or you are a hypocrite.

I'm not sure I'd use the word "gullibility," (it's, ahem, not a neutrally charged word) but it's true that unquestioning faith is a virtue in most (at least seen to the size) religions. The founder of the Jesuits is quoted as saying that he'd believe that white was black, if that's what the pope told him.

Personally, I'm not sure how I'd manage severe downswings if I really truly believed God was behind everything that happened. I'd constantly ask myself why I was being punished. I mean, as if running insanely bad at poker wasn't bad enough on its own, I now have to live with the fact that God Almight has a grudge against me and I don't know why, heh.

Wow, severe thread hijack!!!

just to throw a curve ball at BelgoSuisse. The concept of religion is more complex than simply is there a God?

If we take the stance that there is not a God, we have to offer up an explanation as to why people throughout the world believe in God. It doesn't matter where in the world you look, you will find people who believe in God. You could go to a remote African tribe who have had no contact with the outside world and still find belief in God.

If you examined their beliefs you would find similarities, rituals, common metaphors and such that seem to be echoed in other religions throughout the world.

Now as we have taken the stance that God does not exist, we could explain all this away with human behaviour. There is something about being human, that causes these beliefs.

Now the interesting part -- if belief in God is a natural human behaviour, are atheists going against the grain, so to speak, of natural human behaviour? When we look at psychology, we find that fighting natural behaviour causes problems. So regardless of whether or not God exists, are their benefits in terms of psychological well-being to believe?

Stu, it's actually possible to explain this quite elegantly in terms of evolutionary biology. I don't have time right now to write a long explanation here, but i'm sure FP could point you to a good book about that.

Awesome book that answers every question you just asked, and then some: Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon: Amazon.co.uk: Daniel C. Dennett: Books

There's something very funny about the fact that I made my reply without having seen this post.

Okay, this really IS becoming the mother of all derails. I think the topic is worthy of discussion, though, but not necessarily under the header "Gambling Question" (and I really do think a civil discussion on the topic of the general origin of religion(s) can be had without civil war breaking out). If anyone wants to discuss this further, feel free to create a new thread, preferably with an appropriate, non-inflammatory title.