Gamblers Anonymous spoke today

Today, a person from gamblers anonymous came to our school to talk about "gambling". Apparently, he lost all his money from horse races and blackjack and told about how bad his addiction was. Now, i for one, agreed about the majority of the things he said in terms of black jack, horse races, sports betting etc. However, things turned sour when he started his rant on poker (texas holdem). He admitted that he never truly played the game and did not mainly lose to it. Yet, he still went on about how the skill level of the game was complete bullshit and that everybody can "read faces." What really pissed me off was how he then told us about how he had friends who met poker pros and that they were all "bums" and "degenerates." He said how it's sad that we "idolize" them and that they will all end up broke. I think its really sad how this man has the guts to diss a game he barely even played saying how its all luck. My teacher also agreed with him that poker was all luck despite never playing the game. I also think its sad how there are still SO many people out there who still think poker is a game of chance and for "degenerates." I truly didn't know how to argue against him because he claimed he was "street smarter" than me by 1000 percent and he has "seen it all"

Addicts often deal with their addictions by internalizing a belief that ALL aspects of their "drug" of choice (in this case gambling) are bad for everyone. I've seen this a great deal with alcoholics. This behavior is much more common in the Anonymous groups and anyone chosen to speak to a school would be expected to be quite vehement in their message.

I wouldn't worry too much about it; you wouldn't be able to change his mind with a stack of statistics. Shake your head in pity and move on.

The average person that comes with this type of story most of the time only tells half the truth. Most of the time other factors in there life caused them to make bad choices and they just blame it on gambling. Ex. Coulda been an alcoholic, had a poor marriage, lost a good job, or had a drug habit. I'm sure no one had a gun to his head and made him spend all his money on gambling. Poker is a fun sport and if play right can be a great source of income but you must have self-control. No when to stop spending, don't gamble with your bill money, don't gamble over your head. You will always have Pros and Cons with this event at hand but it is what you make it. What the guy shoulda did was try to teach how to learn from his mistake so you could benefit from it. Oh well, be smart, keep ya head up, STAY IN SCHOOL!!!! GL

Addicts including gambling all have a step programme to work by. They kind of get brainwashed by it all. I know people who are in NA (narcotics anonymous) and AA (Alcoholic anonymous) and they have a 12 step programme to abide by.

With the NA - they can't lapse to any sort of drug and will rant on that any drug is the same in "addiction" wise and a lapse means a full recovery of the programme. The same applies to AA.

I don't know much about GA but I assume ANY sort of game that requires you to to wager would be a re lapse in his programme therefore poker will be classed as gambling to him.

I woulden't try to let it effect it even though I can understand how wound up you got with what he said, I think I'd of give him a piece of my mind and said something along the lines of "Look, just because you coulden't gamble effectively and never actually had any experience in poker to know if it's a skill game or not, no longer wish to listen to your rubbish that you're spouting about your 12 step programme."

He really has no idea what he is talking about, neither does you teacher for agreeing about poker being all luck. It amazes me how he thinks everyone will become broke, did you not point out Iveys,duurs and even doyle brunson and say to him this guy has been playing like 100 years and is a multimillionaire, I wonder what his response would of been.

He seems bitter towards anyone who plays any sort of gambling because he can't control his own emotions and goes stupid and plays stupid.

^^ agree with the classifying poker as gambling. I can see how a natural gambler would chase more, and rely on luck. If everyone did that it would be gambling. even the players on tv say "i'm going to gamble here" or something similar. while they aren't gambling for the whole tourney, a gambler addicted could reach for that same rush. I don't think you can keep poker TOO far from gambling because the approach a gambler takes when they sit. and theyre gambles make everyone else in the hand just as much as a gambler that the original gambler won't hit, which most tight poker players wouldn't fold an 80/20 but a gambler would be more willing to bet with 20% for the rush and possibility.

I think a lot of the people who go to those groups benefit, however they are taught that anything resembling their addiction, such as poker, which is still considered gambling although it does involve skill, will harm them in the long run. I wouldn't get too upset about it, not everything is worth an argument. This guy obviously had a huge problem and needed help for it.

Short term yes poker is gambling...

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period.

Lets change that short period and look at over time. If you look at it over time... Poker is still gambling for 95% of the players out there. Over time 95% of people out there will not be winning poker players and thier profitability will be dependent on luck (might be a little high but you get the point). There is a skill to poker that 70% dont know or vaugly know exist, 25% (or less) want to achieve this skill, and 5% try to hold on to this skill.

For an addict he is not able to control himself as he is addicted to the high, so he not is able to control his outcome over time. For him poker is always gambleing and is reliant on chance.

For someone like this it is easier to blame the game than admit that there are others who can control themselves. For most people having a glass of wine at dinner is not really drinking but to an alcoholic who cant control himself a glass turns into a bottle cause he cant control himself. So a glass of wine is drinking to him. (I could try to make the argument for addiction to cigaretts and "illegal drugs" but it could be taking it a little too far for this rant

I think as a poker player you should just recognize that some people lose controll and that you should just keep poker in the right ballance in your life (whatever amount that is). As long as you stay in control and keep that control then you should be fine.

If poker is gambling then what else is gambling? Stock Market... There is an uncertian outcome with every stock/mutual fund you purchase (yes you can minimize your risk and make what you percieve as EV+ bets). When I was getting my fianance degree we talked about things like this a few times.. http://www.automaticfinances.com/monkey-stock-picking/ If a monkey or randomness out perform the pros 39% and this is OVER TIME that is scary... There are other cases where the monkeys out perform the S&P or almost all mutual funds ect for a given year but with a spread of 100 cases and 14 years I think this gives a more reliable set of data (although it is from the WSJ). I think that there are a lot of similarities to investing and poker (also a lot of differences) and how they relate to gambling. More or less you take educated risks.

You should ask the guy if he thinks investing is a form of gambling too because the outcome is uncertain? Still should not stop you from doing what you want to.

Anyway sorry for the rant... I think if you are asking these questions and keep things in ballance you are fine.

Poker is gambling until you have an edge over your average opponent for many tourneys/hands.

After that it is the others who are gambling at your very own "pseudo-casino."

That being said if you play better than other players you are playing(yes,there is much skill involved), you WILL come ahead IF you play long enough for it to statistically matter.

I completely understand why you got worked up over this. It's always annoying when people indiscriminately lump together subject matters that are only superficially related, all the more so if, ignorant to their own ignorance, they do so with utter conviction. In your shoes, I too would have been itching to set the record straight.

Yet I see why it may be instrumental for this person, as a recovering gambling addict, to maintain this belief. To keep himself from falling back into his addictive behavior, he must reject all things resembling that behavior, even if it involves oversimplifying reality.

For your sake, it may also help to think that, in the greater scheme of things, it's not completely horrible that this popular misconception about poker exists. As long as people believe that "there's no skill in poker", it will attract the sorts of people who'll not be bothered to improve their skills.

Great responses guys. If only there were people like these in the class defending poker. Unfortunately, many of the people in my class did not have enough knowledge to defend it but they did try.

maybe you should listen to your elders ...just because something doesnt apply to you doesnt mean it wont apply to the majority of people.

if you cant listen to others point of view without getting defensive you cant be rational or objective.

I don't know how to put this, but I do think a lot of older poker pros are pretty degenerate. We are kind of in a new era of poker where people grind tons of hands, are aware of BRM, and make it profitable. If you look back, a lot of poker pros stories are pretty ugly and could of ended very poorly.

"maybe you should listen to your elders ...just because something doesnt apply to you doesnt mean it wont apply to the majority of people.

if you cant listen to others point of view without getting defensive you cant be rational or objective."

Hello? I sit there for 1 hour listening to his point of view without saying a word. I actually agreed with many of the things he said but what he said about poker was just so ridiculous. One of the guys in the class said "why didn't you just play poker since it at least requires some skill instead of playing all luck games" in which he responded "whats the skill? Tell me please? The fact that you can reeeaad people? Are you kidding me? Anyone can read people but in the long term, it doesn't make a damn difference"

I really see no problem with this. We all agree that poker is a game of skill.. but an ex- addicted gambler obviously shouldn't be playing poker, and it's kinda ok I think that he's been "brainwashed", even if he is wrong.

And to be honest, I don't think most kids should be taught to play poker lol, as most of them will just gamble it away.

I mean I'm a senior in high school right now but if most other kids tried playing poker like I do they would just lose it all.

Same with NA and AA. A recovering alcoholic shouldn't be having a glass of wine to relax, even if it's not bad for you.

The GA guest claimed the truth of his assertions by appealing solely to his personal experiences, and refused to take any legitimate challenges to his views seriously. It sounds to me that he was the one being--in the most literal sense of the words--irrational and subjective.

Given his circumstances, it's not necessarily a bad thing that he is. It probably helps him cope with his issues, and thus we shouldn't necessarily want to change his views. But it bothers me in principle when people over-categorize or oversimplify matters they don't fully understand, or are unwilling to consider the nuances of a situation, so I happen to really sympathize with OP on this.

I totally agree. My dad is a gambling addict and I have been known to use some milder drugs that I find somewhat addicting. I have addictive personality, but never try to gamble when I play poker.

IMO the brainwashing in 12 step programs is needed in some people to keep them from destroying their lives. It is needed for heroin, meth, crack, benzo's, alcohol and other hard stuff. Sometimes they might just go out for one drink then it leads them back to square one. So they must avoid all drugs(according to AA) even if in severe pain as any opiate can send them into relapse.

I have been to drug rehab for weed though and that's just a joke. IMO it works far better(for me) than the psych meds they try to put me on. At least the side effects are mild. An addict of a harder drug MIGHT use weed and send them into relapse for heroin or alcohol abuse. I didn't find that the case for me. I did some dabbling in many of these drugs on the list and always find weed to keep me from getting hooked on them. The older I get, the less I dabble. That's just me though and everyone is different. Soon it will be medicine(medical marijuana) instead of abuse so I'm happy without having all the stigma surrounding me.

The same is true for a gambling addict. A true addict that is spending more than he can afford needs to be brainwashed to thinking poker is luck sometimes. If gambling ruins their life then this may be a good idea. Personally though I think as long as one has the money, who cares?

Also my father has dabbled in drugs and not found them nearly effective as gambling. I am the opposite. I don't gamble, I play poker to the best of my ability. No casino games or lottery for me(except occasional raffle or sumpin). Although I smoke everyday, it isn't ruining my life and keeps my bi-polar at bay. Some may call me an addict. I would have many years ago. too me this would be almost as bad as calling a diabetic an "insulin junkie." Wouldn't go so far as to say the physical side of missing our medicine would be the same, but the outcome would be the same, possible death.

Anyway I'm getting off-topic here so I'll leave it at that.

Are you sure this GA bloke wasn't Joan Rivers? Sounds like some of the stuff she was coming out with about poker players on The Apprentice. As for poker being gambling, there is a gambling element. There is luck involved, of course. But when you keep seeing the same faces at the final tables of these huge events year in year out, the skill element is undeniable. I've come to learn that more as I've studied and played - I wouldn't have recognised the skill factor before investigating for myself. Sounds like the GA bloke has his little spiel that he has to stick to based on his treatment and that's absolutely fine. No harm in highlighting what can happen to some people as far as gambling is concerned - I suppose him spouting opinions as though they were fact is somewhat unavoidable though.

I,ve been to a few gamcare meetings in tha past (before the days of online poker) and the thing I couldn,t get my head around was that I was told if I wasn,t prepared to stop all gambling including football bets and even my weekly £1 on the lottery then I was wasting their time.
My problem wasn,t the lottery or my weekly £5 of football bets (which i was always strict about).

My problem was slot machines, blackjack but mainly roulette. I finished my job as i was acceoted for a bed at the Gordon House Project (gambling rehab). although when they found out I was being prescribed anti-depressants (mainly due to the gambling) they cancelled my my bed as they said "They didn,t deal with duel dependencies) As far as I know this is the only rehab for gambling in the country with 2 small hostels and was pretty amazed at the lack of help out there for addicted gamblers.

After this i got into poker and can honestly say it helped my gambling addiction. As i got to learn more about poker and especially bankroll management i soon realised the odds were stacked against me on the roulette tables and i,d found a new hobby which I could play at home or in my local pub and snooker club.

Playing live I have made a host of new friends and the games we play in the pub are more of a social gathering than the actual money itself. Of course its always nice to win but its not about the money for me, its about having a good night and pitting your wits against others to see who comes out on top. i have even made new friends from playing online, through community forums and live events such as the SPT ( Sky Poker Tour)

I can understand how pl get addicted to poker and lose all their money , but at the end of the day its a game which involves skill and luck combined and can be a gr8 hobby enjoyed by all - young , old, male , female etc and has brought me a lot of joy over the last few years

As long as you understand bankroll management it should be a game to be enjoyed

MP

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Really interesting to learn of the stipulations certain care groups make for those pursuing their services. It's bizarre that you couldn't receive the help you sought at the time. I'm glad you're doing better now in spite of that.

Poker has had the same effect on me; if anything, it has turned me off of gambling. I didn't have much of a gambling disposition in the first place, but playing poker only solidified that, for it gave me a rational basis on which to reject pure forms of gambling. Taking calculated financial risks all the time desensitizes you to the thrill and allure of wagering money on unequivocally -EV situations, even if it's dressed up in bells, whistles, and pretty, flashing lights.

Im suprised you didn't bring it up with him after. Technically poker is gambling as you are wagering money. I don't play roulette or play any other games where the house has an edge over you its just a -ev situation. In real life if you offered someone 5 quid for every heads they flipped on a coin and they lose 2 pounds for everyone they get wrong, they would be flipping that damn coin all day, anyone would its just good common sense. Poker is the same its just about making +ev decisions, common sense way of making money to me.

Poker does have lots of luck involved in it of course, but at the end of the day after about a million hands everyones luck will be around the same not exact due to statistical variance but mostly the same, its up to the player what they decide to do with what they are given.

Like others have commented Poker has completely changed my view on Fixed odds gambling

If I go to a casino now with friends I only play blackjack roulette etc to be sociable, I get no real enjoyment from it and can easily get bored and end up just watching, knowing that the house has an edge and that you will only win by getting lucky leaves me cold.

Im only a break even poker player but I understand that that is due to leaks in my game (and my total disregard for money) and not something outside of my control

Look, I'll make it plain and simple.

Poker is only gambling if you don't know WTF you are doing!

Poker is a mix of skill and gambling, how much of each depends on the individual player and like anything in life to much of it can be bad for you. I have always said , it doesn't matter if it's gambling , drugs or sex as long as you control it there should be no worries it's when the "it" starts controlling you that you need to worry

What about BINGO, did he bring that up.

I personally try to look at the overall picture on this , no need to agree with all he said as by his own words doesn't know poker. He does however seem to know addiction.
A few drinks for most people = good times. For an alcoholic not so much.
Poker for most people+good times . Gambling addict not so much.

If you don't fall into the addict category enjoy your time at the tables.

I probably would have been mad like you if somebody said that, especially since he did not have much experience playing it. At the end of the day, poker is gambling but I think it is also the best option because I believe you have the most control over what happens compared to anything else. (Especially if you know what you are doing). Now if you don't, than it's no different.

So, he is mistaken about poker. I imagine for the most part his advice is good.

The interesting question now is: Why are so many here defensive?

I concur!

Also, I find it amusing to hear the comments about 12-step programs (which you obviously know nothing about from reading your comments) & yet you're dissing someone on their lack of experience with poker.
Bottom line (imo) if a person has a propensity towards addition then poker can definitely be something they would want to tread lightly on. I'm in no way suggesting that poker is purely gambling but for sure it could be highly addictive to an addict & could also lead to gambling (as I've witnessed it happen to many, many people... & I'm older than 17-18 sitting in a classroom so I think I might have a teeny bit of experience).

I also don't doubt the speaker's experience with the poker pros he's met. No doubt alot of them are degens. & alot are broke inspite of all the big wins. One thing I tend to notice amongst the ones that I've come in contact with, they have some huge similiarities to addicts with other addictions.. in a big way (one, alot of them seem pretty f'd up, emotionally immature, egotistical with an inferiority complex & spiritually bankrupt... by no means 'all' of them... just 'alot' of the ones I've met personally).

As far as folks thinking of poker as only a game of luck... I don't pay them any attention at all. I have family members who seem all interested, ask questions & supposedly listen to answers, etc. but then are convinced it's all luck/gambling, etc. Who cares? Who cares what they think? They obviously don't know much about the game... so what? Trying to convince them or to argue a point is a waste of time & to do so is about as naive as thinking the game is all luck.

I wouldn't care as much if general (non-poker playing) public perception of the game didn't have so much power to delegitimize it. Poker's shaky legal status (e.g. in the US) is largely due to its being lumped together with other casino games.

On a more personal level, I think it's understandably frustrating when someone puts down something you're sincerely passionate about (could be anything; a hobby, an artist, an ideology) in spite of them having (what you believe to be) only a limited understanding of that thing. It's not so much that you want to change their mind, but inside you feel a bit aggravated.

Two things:

People with a gambling problem should not play poker. While it's possible to play poker as an intellectual game, it's also possible to play it as a pure gamble, and therefore problem gamblers should not play it.

Good poker players should not try to convince the general public that poker is more skills than luck. The fact most people consider it as a form of gambling is what brings the fishes to the tables are makes it a profitable hobby for us. If everyone starts considering that it's a game of skills somewhat akin to chess, the game is dead.

As a person who has been to different groups of twelve step programs there was something that was told to me "if it dont apply let it fly". As the speaker of the meeting he spoke out of term by making statements about degenerates and bums and about poker and various games. It would be like me being a speaker at a narcotics anonymous meeting and talking bad about drunks and telling "war stories" things like how to cook coke and dope.

As a clean addict I have to be vigillient all the time but I am not spending all of my money on full tilt with the rent money or going to the bookie and betting what i dont have I will say this I have a problem with cashgames to wit RUSH its like poker crack to me and I am fearing a relapse for take two

^^^^^ +1

Very good point of view. It would suck if poker was known as a game of skill. You can actually gamble just as much at chess or backgammon than you can at poker. It's just people are smart enough to realize these are games of skill and don't attract very many novices. As soon as Full Tilt Academy becomes a real academy, the casual player is less likely to join in(which sucks for us).

The sad truth is poker kinda needs to be lumped in with casino/lottery type games for it to be profitable for a skilled player. On the other hand it don't help to use that line when you are American trying to get rid of negative stigma of poker. Catch 22 if I have ever seen one.

I love the crutch of the modern human. People love to blame their problems on things they choose to do today. It was the cocaine, or the poker, or the sex with random women that made their lives so bad. You know what, I used to have a cocaine addiction, and it didn't make my life bad. My stupid decisions made my life bad. The cocaine did not wake me up in the middle of the night and say "snort me, smoke me, shoot me" it just sat there while I chose to make the decision to use it. A person can talk about something being the root of all evil, but any person who has dealt with addiction and not beat it with "God's help" or "through 'anonymous' meetings" will tell you that the true root of all evil is human greed and lack of self control. People don't "become" addicts, they choose to be and the fact that he came to your school and said all of that just perpetuates the cycle of addiction because it gives all of your fellow students a crutch to blame their future problems on instead of facing the fact that we make our own decisions in life. I think talks like that are pointless and more harmful than good. That's just the opinion of a straight edge poker player with newly found self control though/

Well said.Also well said.

K, now I don't have to post here.