Folding QQ Preflop

#1 17th January 2009, 11:52 PM

Would you ever fold QQ preflop?
I up till now have have always just called any amount or any all in with with the top 3 premium pairs preflop, but not sure if you should at least fold QQ sometimes maybe KK even occasionally.
I was playing in a 180 players sit n go and near the start some guy just pushed all in preflop when I had QQ, in a pot noone had entered yet
I had 6000 chips, he had 3000 roughly and there were 1500 starting chips.
I contemplate folding but I call and he has AA which holds up.
Thing is you get people pushing all in with JJ, 1010, AK or AQ or weaker hands so he could have had a weaker hand than me.
His play was obviously garbage of course because he would most likely have just picked up the blinds with this push, when the stacks were so deep.

#2 18th January 2009, 12:35 AM

obviously there are times when u can fold QQ sometimes because it's only the 3rd best hand preflop

#3 18th January 2009, 3:07 AM

I have folded QQ a few times pre and folded KK twice. Everytime I did the person showed AA. I have only done this when the tournaments have called for it (deep stack or on bubble).

#4 18th January 2009, 3:14 AM

I may sound foolish, but I don't think I would ever throw down the QQ pre.
You'd have to be somewhat unlucky to be beaten with this. Unless its getting near the end of the tourney and everyone is playing tight, and then you see the big push.

Its then that I'd think twice

#5 18th January 2009, 9:24 AM

in some situatuions it defently worth to fold QQ, when at the bubble and you are lower stack it better to wait till you are in the money.

#6 18th January 2009, 8:51 PM

i think a good player can lay that down depending on the situation.

#7 18th January 2009, 9:04 PM

I won't hesitate to fold qq pf if someone goes all-in, unless I've got their all-in covered by 10x or more. call me tight.

#8 18th January 2009, 9:10 PM

Yeah... I'd lay it down if I thought there would be more than 1 or 2 callers... I mean, I might consider laying it down if it wasn't a heads-up situation. I think for the most part, people will go all-in with A-k, A-q, A-j, K-Q, depending on the situation so you can just about be guaranteed an overcard so... on the bubble, I'd fold it right away if I had to go all-in. Perfect hand to see a flop with though.

#9 18th January 2009, 10:05 PM

well..dont think Iv ever folded queens preflop..in your case..I see why you called pushen with aa like you said..more than likly hes just going to get the blinds...think that was just bad time for you to get your queens..but atleast it didnt break you

#10 18th January 2009, 10:12 PM

Folded QQ and JJ today!
Just a pair.

#11 18th January 2009, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanquish

obviously there are times when u can fold QQ sometimes because it's only the 3rd best hand preflop

I completely disagree. You should NOT fold poket Queens pre-flop BECAUSE it's the 3rd best hand in poker.

Of course you can be beaten by a better hand but that's a risk you have to take. QQ is a very good hand and a very good opportunity, so it is foolish in my opinion to pass it simply because it can be beaten.

Of course you can do anything you want in poker, you can fold your BB with 5-1 odds, lay down big PPs but if you miss these opportunities, you do not give yourself the maximum chance to win.

Don't fold QQ pre flop, take a chance with it and if you lose, there's always another tournament.

There is one notable exception though where you should fold. If you are playing a satellite and you know you have enough chips so you can fold every hand and guaranty a seat, you should ALWAYS fold QQ there and the same applies to KK and AA. You should not even contemplate a call.

There are also more arguable circumstances:

You also may want to fold QQ preflop if you are at the bubble and cashing is very important to you. If I was a the WSOP one spot before the money (or the final table), I would forgo the opportunity to in order to achieve such a major cash. In other words the certainty of a payout would outweight the benefit that a winning showdown would give me for the rest of my tournament. This is my view in the light of my personal circumstances but that is obviously up to the player to decide, there's no way to say whether this is good or bad play because people's circumstances are different. It would be bad play for Phil Ivey to do so, understandable for me.

Someone is 3betting you. People typically do that with AA or KK, sometimes AK or QQ. They put a minimal re-raise to increase the size of the pot, we've all seen this happen, it's pretty standard play. But again folding is debatable because if the re-raise is minimal, you may want to just call the additional chips and see a flop. But if you are almost sure the guy has AA or KK, the fold certainly makes sense.

You may also want to fold if there are too many people all in preflop. This is debatable again but if 4 people are all in already, you have an increased likelihood that one for these guys (especially the 4th caller has a monster) and you also have a relatively low chance of winning, even if you're the favourite since there are many people in the hand. Even if it makes sense to call from a odds point of view, survival is also a very important aspect of freezeout tournament poker. So it MAY be the right thing to do here.

Perhaps if you were playing a tournament that is expensive relative to your bankroll (say the Poker Stars Sunday Million), you may want to pass here and look for other oppotunities later rather than betting your future tournament life on that one hand, that early. It would certainly ring alarm bells if someone would push like that in a tournament with experienced players.

But seriously these are very rare situations and in virtually any situation you should NOT fold such a nice hand here.

#12 18th January 2009, 10:28 PM

I had folded QQ too a few times in sng. You have great quantity of chips and I think that fold is correct.
In sng sometimes it is a necessary folder premiums hands to enter the money.

#13 18th January 2009, 11:52 PM

Can't see a pre flop. It just seems like a total waste of a great hand. On the bubble, maybe, but I would have to think a lot for the fold.

#14 19th January 2009, 1:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockpoker

I had folded QQ too a few times in sng. You have great quantity of chips and I think that fold is correct.
In sng sometimes it is a necessary folder premiums hands to enter the money.

Well I think this is completely wrong. You don't make much money at the bottom of the price pool in SNGs anyway. A double up with QQ however makes you favourite to win in which is what you should aim at.

If you're at the begining of the SNG and you lose you, you can always re-enter another one, it's essentially a rebuy scenario. On the other hand if you win you'll be double the stack compared to the other players and you'll be able to push them around. So no fold of QQ makes sense here. Or you're towards the middle/end: 1- A double up will put you favorite to win the tournament. 2- The tournament is shorthanded which increase the value of a QQ.

So again except for exceptional circumstances, a fold doesn't make any sense.

#15 19th January 2009, 2:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlunderCity

I completely disagree. You should NOT fold poket Queens pre-flop BECAUSE it's the 3rd best hand in poker.

if ur 400bb deep against a very nitty reg (and i mean nitty), u 5-bet and he 6-bet shoves, r u still playing QQ?
fwiw, i didnt read beyond this line

#16 19th January 2009, 5:57 PM

Folded kings and aces in 9 person tables while sitting on a 3/4k stack because 3 or 4 people shoved. No point in playing because all id have to do is sit out and wait for them to take each other out and place in the money, about the only time id fold em.

#17 19th January 2009, 6:11 PM

Yeah its a tough call turns your play into luck at that point. Id fold if it was gonna knock me out and wasnt in the money yet.

#18 19th January 2009, 8:06 PM

I can only recall once laying it down. I raised preflop, another guy re-raised me and a third guy re-raised him. I felt that with all of this, someone had to have AA or KK. After I folded and both other guys were all in, they both showed AK. Theoretically speaking it was a bad move on my part as they both only had 4 outs, but one of the remaining 2 aces DID show up and I would have lost it as these two split the pot. (all they shared was my raise and the blinds.)

#19 20th January 2009, 6:22 AM

One situation that has happened to me several times on the bubble, which I never should have let myself get into, but that's besides the point, is your stack is so small that doubling up won't even move you up the ladder enough to make it worthwhile, while you know that someone else will be blinded out before you and you will make the money. That happens when you've allowed yourself to be blinded away because you think you can make the money doing that. Or I guess it could happen if you've taken a bad beat and only have a few chips left. Might as well get your entry fee back if it's a sure thing based on the situation. I'm talking something like 100 chips left, just made it through the blinds and can last another round of the table while others can't, and even if you do double up to 200, the blinds hit you again right away. Maybe the next lowest stack after the bubble breaks has 5000 chips. Then I'd fold anything and try again next tournament with my entry fee back. Once the bubble breaks, though, I'm all-in with anything.

#20 20th January 2009, 6:32 AM

I Have A Hard Time Folding Any Pocket Pair Even Thought I Know I Should Most Of The Time. Probably One Of My Weaknesses, But I Have Gotten Better At Folding Pockets When The Flop Was Not To My Liking. I Always Raise Pre-Flop With Pockets, Rarely Do I Go All In Unless I Am Short Stacked In A Tourney.

#21 20th January 2009, 7:24 AM

Here's a scenario for folding QQ .............................

You are at a 5000nl table and your entire bankroll is $51.66. EVERYONE goes all in and you are in the BB. Let's put this into PokerStove CHUCKTS style and see what it says ...

IT SAYS CALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL HUMBERTO!

Ya never fold ever. Just call always. Wait wait bad advice. Disregard post just go watch

Revenge of the Beach Bash Banger Brothers VII: Eatin' Mexican Burritos

Oh look at this it says this:

#22 20th January 2009, 7:29 AM

Although its a very pretty hand, You have to consider pot odds, and your chip stack vs the aggressors chip stack. Preflop to a bigger chip stack, i would fold it. If you have the opponent covered, i woudl call and let the cards do the running.

#23 20th January 2009, 7:42 AM

hell ya its ok to foldem ... QQ almost as bad as AA lol
nothing is mandatory all in preflop, even AA gets beat if too many in on the hand. I always ask myself ' do i want to get taken out of the tourny here?'
live to fight another day is a good motto

#24 20th January 2009, 8:43 AM

Would have a hard time folding QQ.....maybe near a bubble....maybe

#25 20th January 2009, 3:17 PM

I wish more people would have the discipline to fold lesser hands. They beat up my overpairs all the time. Crummy set miners and 4 flushers! Out of spite and vengence I would have to be among the never-fold-QQ-under-normal-circumstances crowd.

#26 20th January 2009, 3:26 PM

I folded many pocket QQ, majority of the time i was right about the fold when i was dominated by AA, but sometimes i was just bluffed or going against AK when i could have win the pot..

#27 20th January 2009, 3:45 PM

Another awful thread full of bad advise. Saying never in poker is generally a bad thing.

Playing hands like QQ in an MTT when the stacks are shallow will usually be for stacks, and that is just the nature of the game. If your standard line is to fold QQ when your M is <15 to a raise the you are playing too tight. (this of course is in the absence of reads but this is rare). Thinking about your "tournament life" is generally incorrect, you should be thinking about getting in good.

However playing QQ 150bb deep in a ring game or tournament can be a very different senario. In these cases to get a stack in preflop it will usually be 4 or even 5 bet to get the stacks in, and dependant on action and reads we can generally assume that if someone 5 bets then our QQ is toast

#28 20th January 2009, 4:04 PM

I personally will not push all in preflop in the very beginning of the game. Also I will fold ALL hands near the bubble. EVEN AA unless I am short stacked and have NO chance of making the money. SOMETIMES I will play an oober premium hand near the bubble but NOT all in preflop.

#29 20th January 2009, 4:31 PM

I folded QQ the other day in a cash game a known player pushed all in preflop 18% VPIP and 4% PFR, so pretty obvious he either had AA/KK cause I'd never seen him do this before, turned out it was AA someone called with TT.

#30 20th January 2009, 6:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlunderCity

I completely disagree. You should NOT fold poket Queens pre-flop BECAUSE it's the 3rd best hand in poker.

Of course you can be beaten by a better hand but that's a risk you have to take. QQ is a very good hand and a very good opportunity, so it is foolish in my opinion to pass it simply because it can be beaten.

Of course you can do anything you want in poker, you can fold your BB with 5-1 odds, lay down big PPs but if you miss these opportunities, you do not give yourself the maximum chance to win.

Don't fold QQ pre flop, take a chance with it and if you lose, there's always another tournament.

There is one notable exception though where you should fold. If you are playing a satellite and you know you have enough chips so you can fold every hand and guaranty a seat, you should ALWAYS fold QQ there and the same applies to KK and AA. You should not even contemplate a call.

There are also more arguable circumstances:

You also may want to fold QQ preflop if you are at the bubble and cashing is very important to you. If I was a the WSOP one spot before the money (or the final table), I would forgo the opportunity to in order to achieve such a major cash. In other words the certainty of a payout would outweight the benefit that a winning showdown would give me for the rest of my tournament. This is my view in the light of my personal circumstances but that is obviously up to the player to decide, there's no way to say whether this is good or bad play because people's circumstances are different. It would be bad play for Phil Ivey to do so, understandable for me.

Someone is 3betting you. People typically do that with AA or KK, sometimes AK or QQ. They put a minimal re-raise to increase the size of the pot, we've all seen this happen, it's pretty standard play. But again folding is debatable because if the re-raise is minimal, you may want to just call the additional chips and see a flop. But if you are almost sure the guy has AA or KK, the fold certainly makes sense.

You may also want to fold if there are too many people all in preflop. This is debatable again but if 4 people are all in already, you have an increased likelihood that one for these guys (especially the 4th caller has a monster) and you also have a relatively low chance of winning, even if you're the favourite since there are many people in the hand. Even if it makes sense to call from a odds point of view, survival is also a very important aspect of freezeout tournament poker. So it MAY be the right thing to do here.

Perhaps if you were playing a tournament that is expensive relative to your bankroll (say the Poker Stars Sunday Million), you may want to pass here and look for other oppotunities later rather than betting your future tournament life on that one hand, that early. It would certainly ring alarm bells if someone would push like that in a tournament with experienced players.

But seriously these are very rare situations and in virtually any situation you should NOT fold such a nice hand here.

i didn't say fold it because it can be beaten, i said there are times to fold it because it is most likely beaten. also idk why u keep talking about all these tournaments when obv most situations for folding QQ preflop would come up in ring games (ie: u open UTG and get 3bet in MP, and then a tight BB 4-bets)

#31 20th January 2009, 7:07 PM

IF 2 or more players are allin in front of you, unless you know they are both very loose. lay it down

#32 21st January 2009, 12:28 AM

I guess it's all situational. I mean, in a ring table I'd probably do it, seeing as I play low levels and people go all in with terrible cards. Then again, they do seem to hit what they need very often.

#33 21st January 2009, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scphillips87

I guess it's all situational. I mean, in a ring table I'd probably do it, seeing as I play low levels and people go all in with terrible cards. Then again, they do seem to hit what they need very often.

remember you want players to go all in with terrible cards!

#34 21st January 2009, 6:15 AM

Not too terrible, cause I'd rather have them dominated.. not two live cards. I've seen two live cards beat my pockets way too many times...

So if you ever see me at the tables, go all-in with the most terrible cards you can muster. Cheers, from Canada.

#35 28th January 2009, 11:29 AM

I'll admit I would usually call with QQ but there have been rare occasions I have folded.

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