Folding AA ?

I think in this scenario it would come down to more of how well you now these players. You are obviously a favorite with AA in your hand so other than the prize equity which is something to seriously consider here are what I would consider are the other most important contributing factors:
your table image at the current time

the image or what you believe is the current approach of the other players as to how they will react or whether they will be playing back at you and

what you feel they will probably have in their hand to call your all-in with.

My assumption would be these must be very competent to very good players if they had made it this far and also that you had been playing with each one for at least several hours if not some of them a couple of days depending on which tourney we are talking. So with that in mind you should have a good "feel" for whether to pull the trigger or not.

Overall I feel you have the odds in your favor and if you feel that in a 4 handed game that you will get 2 or less callers, preferably only 1 caller whether it be the chip leader or not I say fire away!!!

After all you are in it to win it right??!!? I know that between 1st and 4th it is a big swing but the other thing is all of the other players are well aware or should be of the prize equity factor and I am sure are taking it into account when they see you pull the trigger for your whole stack and how calling it will obviously directly affect thiers!!! To me the above factors should weigh in heavy when they go to make that call!!! You basically forcing them to make that big decision and that could knock them out or take a big chunk of their stack as well and and drop their prize amount along with it!

Even though the exact math in this situation may very well say otherwise I always feel poker in general is alot more than the math and in this move these things are a must to consider!!!

wat?

Is this a thread about folding AA in a 4-handed final table scenario??


....


I just read it again and i still cant grasp your point.

There is only a very very very small number of situations when you fold this hand EVER! The most obvious and I believe only, is when you are in a satelite all cash places pay the same entry and there are more than 1 all-in infront of you.

Um- not sure what you'll getting at in your post, but in a 4 handed game your money needs to be in that pot. There are very few times it would be ok to fold AA. Can't see it happening in a 4 handed game though.

First let me say that i never shove all my chips in on any hand unless i am shortstacked. AA i would bet large enough to discourage draws but not all in. Let me explain, I was in a hand with AA and i had bet it 4x bb and got just two callers. Flop came out K K 5 and dude to my left is immediately all in. so i fold. and save my tournament life.

if u can get AA all in preflop 5million blinds deep, u get it in

Thats a tough one! This is how live and online poker differ greatly, as you might be able to get a strength read of him/her. Personally, I would get my money in preflop and be happy with a call or no call, so let chips fall we they may. It seems Texas holdem is just 7 card bingo anyhow.

I agree with the above poster. Only possible time to fold AA is when it's satelite and you're far in the money with only a few more people to lose (as in, you could sit out and qualify 100%).

yea qft!

But really, I cant remember folding AA preflop, ever.

what? in your scnerio i don't understand how u can fold AA, in a four handed game at final table, all my chips go in preflop, and most likely on the flop, no matter what flops. If u get out drawn it is just bad luckl.

That's because I would venture that 99.9% of players (unless you play DoN and/or satellites exclusively) will never find a situation where it's actually correct in terms of prize pool equity to fold AA.

NO YOU DO THAT I DON'T.

well if ur not, then ur making a mistake and being results oriented when u lose

I have been a .01% player where I have folded AA in a satellite where I was already garunteed a seat. (Stars $2 satt to the sunday 1/4 mill)

It felt so weird and wrong but I wasnt going to risk the seat when I already had it locked up.

However a greater test for me may be on the bubble of a Sunday Major (i.e) one or two away, given I havent played these and a min-cash would be for $400+. I know what the correct long term play would be but as to what I would do in that specific situation (like the first time I am faced with it) I dont know.

Real world answer: only in a satellite where folding would give you a better chance of winning/staying in place for a seat. This only really occurs where the payout bubble is so steep ($0 or close to zero for x+1th place, and a large number for xth place)

Hypothetical answers: Lots of potential here, but most of them are highly contrived and just won't happen in the real world. Such as if you are at a final table and *need*to win a certain amount of money, anything under that amount is worthless, anything over that doesn't help you any more than the required amount. Maybe you are dying and need $1M to take a trip to outer space before you die, whatever. Then there may be cases, like in a satellite, where folding to guarantee or improve your chances of getting that amount, is correct.

All i am saying is there is more than one way to skin a cat. You want to shove immediately(Preflop) say that. Don't come in to the thread with a knowitall attitude because of your senority and pick out something that i say and comment on it.

so what ur saying is that if ur making a mistake, i shouldnt correct you?

ok sir, donk it up, ill leave u alone

It depends on stack sizes.

AA is an easy fold sometimes online.

It really depends on your HUD reads on a player.

If you 3bet preflop (stacks are deep) and get called.. usually its AK or the guy is set mining.

If the flop comes up say T 7 2 and your villian comes out betting, reraise him.

Then if he reraises you you look at his overall agression stats.

If he is a hyper agressive loose player then you close your eyes and shove!

If he is a timid, never raiseing never getting involved with big pots player then you have to think he has a hand that beats you, i.e. TT (a set)

there are ways to correct people and then there are way to make yourself feel superior. you needed to feel superior today and i feel the need to call you on it.

wat?

The only time to ever consider folding AA is in very late stages of tournament play.

Occasionally ICM dictates that the risk you place on your chips with AA is not worth the current reward in terms of overall placement in the tournament.

Its very very rare!!

i dont even think u should consider folding it in a regular mtt, even if the payout structure is really steep, then u need to risk ur chips to maximize ur chances of getting to those upper pay levels and no better hand to do that with than AA

only in a satty near the ppl imo

if you can get some one to shove preflop then spot on. But if your forced to do the raising then i think your better off betting your usual raise.

There is nothing worse than getting no action when you hold AA, and an all in bet will usually get you no action other than a short stack.

Its rare!!

TBH I have only ever seen extreme theretical examples of it.

I.e. you are the chip leader on the final table. There is a player with nearly the same amount of chips as you. There are 6 other players with virtually no chips.

You hold AA, and raise in EP, players 2 and 3 go all in and then the second place chip leader shoves.

At this moment in time you are virtually guaranteed 2nd place. By calling you either guarantee first place or risk going down to 6th place if you get sucked out on.

The ICM allows you to quantify the risk reward situation you are in.. and sometimes.. in extreme cases it says that folding AA is your bet course of action.

By waiting out a few hands and allowing others to go bust, you guarantee a battle for first place with only 2 players in it (and you are one of them).. at that point you guarantee a second place finish but still have a good chance of winning.

In the previous example you have a good chance of winning, but risk taking 6th place if a suckout occurs.

i still dont think u should fold there

ok i got a good size chip lead top 3 get paid(a satellite prize) and its 4 handed i may fold AA. but if i got enough of a chip lead that i can afford to double someone and still have the lead. i'm shoving. there's just not tooo many spots i fold AA preflop that is.

lol

TBH I really struggled with the concept of folding aces because the ICM says so.

Its a very extreme example, usually used to demonstrate the principles of ICM.

It is correct to follow it, but I do understand why people find it hard to accept, and I'm not sure that players would actually follow it on the final table of the WSOP.

Thats more the idea. You only consider folding if the outcome of it all going wrong drastically effects your overall position.

If you can lose an allin without losing your equity in the tournament then the ICM dictates that you call.

yesterday on fulltiltpoker i had to fold a pair of AA

I had AA flop A39 hearts my aces where spades and clubs, turn a J heart, and he went all in 50$ i had to fold them because it was obvious his flush ace high

Exactly! I agree with you mate, never folding it!

I have lost AA more times than I can say to 3 pairs or flushes. I still would not fold unless absolute apparent I was not favored to win.