Figuring it Out

Well, after dumping about $250 into online poker, I finally started moving up.

I'd deposit $50 and once I even managed to double it, but I always ended up back at 0 and had to reload. After that, I could never maintain any kind of profit - I'd move up to $70, then back down again.

Well, I deposited $75 3 weeks ago. I'd moved up to $113, but over one Saturday, I moved back to $13 one week ago. I took that $13 and now I am at $185.

This is playing mainly .05/.10 with a couple of .10/.25 sessions mixed in. I think I've played maybe 4 SNGs and cashed in 2, but none over $2.

Anway - how long will my upswing last? I don't know...but I've figured a lot of things out so hopefully I can BR manage my money and keep from going too far down. Right now, I'm playing in .10/.25 and will stay there until I drop back to $100 or move up to $250.

For one - so many people bluff online it's UNREAL - at least at the micro stakes. Had nut flush draw and called $2 bet into a 3 way pot and turn gave it to me. Before I could bet someone went all in for $7...of course I call and the other guy folds. He doesn't even have a flush. He has suited KJs and had paired the J (flush was clubs). I couldn't believe it. Just wanting to give his money away.

If I have a hand, I'll call some crazy bets sometimes if I don't know the person. Sometimes I get beat with a better hand (I at least have to have a reasonable hand relative to the board. I'm not going to carry TP to river with a 3-4 card flush on the board into a big raiser). But there are some maniacs out there and I'm finding them and letting them give me their money.

Anyway - I just wanted to say thanks to the board. This one, plus another big one, plus books I've read, plus the 29K hands I've played on Absolute Poker + the 20K hands I've palyed at PokerStars have HELPED. Now, $185 isn't much to some of you big dogs...but it is to me. I just hope to continue to build instead of slide backwards!

If you want to continue to slide upwards and not down you probably shouldn't be playing $25 NL with a BR of $185. That is playing over your roll. You probably know that already though. I personall play over my roll sometimes too but not by much. A downswing and a couple bad beats can send you busto here quickly with your BR on $25 NL. The variance could get you.

Some say that you should never bring more than 10% of your bankroll to the table. Chris Ferguson says no more than 5%.

Right, here we go again...

FOR ONLINE POKER YOUR BANKROLL SHOULD BE AT LEAST 20 TIMES THE MAXIMUM BUY IN.

THEREFORE IF YA DO 0.10 / 0.25 (Assuming max buy in is $25) THEN YOUR BANKROLL SHOULD BE AT LEAST $500 !! (25X20)

* Sorry for caps, but this BR guideline/rule/suggestion has been banged home so many times on the net and in books that it's ridiculous that people are still clueless about it.

What is all this talk of playing 0.10/0.25 with a BR of between $100 and $250??

Oh well, La di da.

i've been playing poker for years and have never heard this about online br? sorry if this is repetative for some of you but i'd lovr to hear more about it!

Here is an article from this website that pertains to limit holdem:

http://www.cardschat.com/poker/lessons/bankroll

Bankroll management is basically just to withstand the variance and keep you from going busto during a bad run. The conservative approach is basically not to buy in to any ring game or SNG with more then 5% of your bankroll or MTT with more then 2%.

Not to be negative, but I don't think you have enough timespan on that upswing to say you've figured it out yet. You said so yourself that you've been on upswings before, just to lose it all pretty quickly. From what I scanned here, I'd say you definitely have some BR management problems. You're playing wayyyyy above the stakes you should be playing at on ring games with your BR. Wtih what $185, defintiely shouldn't be playing the $25 Max tables. $10 Max is perfect for you, move down stakes.

If you want to actually have a BR to build on in like 3 weeks, I'd suggest you down on the stakes, and only have about 5-10% (preferrably 5%) of your BR on the table. If you do this, you have a shot at actually gaining some knowledge about BR management and the patience you need to be a successful, profitable poker player. If you don't do this, well, I'd give it about 2-3 weeks and you'll be back to $0 again for your BR. Trust me.

Besides playing lower limits as suggested before, I might also suggest investing some time observing a table for a period of time (say 5-6 orbits) to get a feel for what the players are like (LAG, TAG, LAP, etc). Then you'll be armed with better information about what those "crazy bets" might actually represent. Practice putting players on a range of hands and try to predict their range based on their playing styles. You'll fare much better when you put in some table observation before playing.

Thanks for all the input. You are right in saying that I don't have it figured out. I guess I meant that in relative terms. Like Phil H says - takes an hour to learn, a lifetime to master. I just meant relative to my past few months, I'm doing much better.

I also understand the BR and stakes. My only problem is with what I can load with, I'd NEVER be able to do anything if I limited myself to 5% of my BR. With my initial $75, I'd only be able to play a $3.75 MAX table. So I played the .05/.10 and brought $4 each time (the min).

My thinking is (and please - I love this site and love inputs...) with $190, I can bring $10 to a table of .10/.25 and never lose more than that in a session. I know - if I bring the max to the table, I can score bigger with a big hand - but if I bring that much and get pushed on all in with AA and get it cracked - that's a big blow. If I bring 10 and lose it, okay.

After listening to your advice, maybe I'll play some more at the .05/.10. But even there - I only bring $4 (the min). Maybe that's *wimpy* but it has worked so far. If I get doubled up and then doubled again I can be sitting $16 and then if I get pushed and lose, still down just $4...but if I win, I'm up to $32 or more.

Even at the .05/.20, the max is $20 - which, according the 10% rule is JUST enough to sit down with.

I agree with using the BR mgmt skills as talked about in the article, BUT - I think that is more usefull once you HAVE a BR vs creating one. Right now, I'm still trying to create one. Again, $190 is not much to you veterans, but it is to me.

I've been on upswings before, but not like this. I've gone from $50 to $0 pretty fast and I've gone from $50 to $100 and back down. But this is from $13. Will it go down again, I'm sure. Hopefully I can keep it from going to far before recovery.

I think I will try to build some more at the .05/.10 level, but I'll spot in the .10/.25 also. I tried the .25/.50 for a session with the min and while I broke even, the bets were a little too much for me based on my BR so I couldn't play as effective. So I went back down.

Thanks for all the inputs. I didn't mean to sound arrogant. There is more to learn and will probably take a lifetime to master, but relative to where I was and what I understood...I have definately grown.

BTW - I've read the BR thread a while ago. Good stuff.

I thought I'd read or heard somewhere that your bankroll should be at a minimum of 30x, but 50x (BB + SB + Ante[if any]) is recommended. Is this incorrect, or did I just jumble my recollection of what I thought I'd read?

Differant strikes for differant folks as the saying goes. Chris Ferguson's Zero to Hero strategy is a good one, but he's already rich and can afford to fool around not to mention it's good for his celebrity image and Full Tilt's mission to capture new players.

Bankroll management is VERY key to playing winning poker and CardsChat members range from freerollers to high stakes players. A bankroll to one is dinner and a movie for another, or maybe even a mortgage payment/rent.

Daniel Negraneu can't play small stakes poker, he may be able to drop a few levels but no way could he play 25 cent blind poker and consistantly win. He wouldn't be able to manage a bankroll that small. Unless like Ferguson he's doing it for celebrity image or luring people to his site Full contact and could focus with something like his ego/status on the line.

I can't and WON"T play 1 dollar tourneys and freerolls unless I'm doing it with friends like CC members for fun otherwise to me it's a waste of time and not worth the effort. I am playing currently 2/3 and 5 dollar tourneys with the occasional 10 dollar thrown in if the value is right. With 72 cashes 13 final tables and 5 first places since January of this year, I'm a bit impatient to win a bigger tournament.

Even the 2 and 3 dollar tourneys are borderline for me in being able to focus for as long as it takes to cash or final table, if I'm lucky/good enough to make the final table 1st may only pay a little over 100 bucks. I only play these to build bankroll so I can play the occasional 10 in hopes to final table in one of those. So THEN I may win a bankroll I can manage at 10% which means probably a move up for consistant 10 dollar tourneys untill I get enough to get to 20's or better.

No offense to the freerollers, I actually admire all of your tenacity to manage your way into a bankroll how ever small and build it to awesome proportions. I just don't have the patience and don't WANT to do that.

As long as I can pay the rent and get my baby new shoes when she needs them and I can still afford to deposit 50 bucks every now and then that's what I'll do untill I hit a big enough tourney to satisfy my time/worth perceptions. Then I'll manage my bankroll.

If this makes me a fish so be it! They say most poker players don't win, well right now according to my books I honestly fit in that category. When I have enough of a bankroll to protect, when it's big enough for me to play at a level that interests me, you bet I'll insitute some rock hard magagement values. Untill then I play with what I can afford, strive to plug my leaks, learn how to play better and take my shots at the brass ring.

Hey sharks gotta eat too!