Are Double or Nothing SnG's worth it?

I have played a few of the $1.15 non turbos on pokerstars and it seems like it would take quite a while to build up a bankroll playing these.Even when I win 2/3 I still am behind because of rake. Anyone been playing these specifically to build their BR?

FYP. 2 wins = $4, 3 games = $3.45, Profit = $4 - $3.45 = $.55. Breakeven point is 57.5%.

Fwiw, DONs is my primary game and there is decent upside. Also, learn to play the turbos.

playing any sit and go format where you are paying more then 10% rake is atrocious. I wouldn't touch it.

Double or nothings are a stable easy way to make money if you know what your doing, but it does take some adapting to and normal poker rules have to be broken.

for example if you have 3400 chips and someone shoves all in for 1950 when blinds are at say 200/400 and you have QQ and put them on a steal attempt, this is still a fold.

I assuming you start with 1500 chips there. your likely to be through anyway and jeopardizing most of your stack is not wise I would only call with AA there.

I once folded AK pre to a second in shove i had 2400 chips the guy shoved for 1100 2400 is still pretty safe and likely to get the money. if i had called and lost i would have only 1300 chips he had 44 it was 55% chance had I called I would of gone from been likely through to likely out. and if I had won the hand I would have gone from been very likely through to an almost certain through. so it was the right fold but amateur plays don't know this (proven by a guy with 2200 chips calling this with q9 off suit ). I turned $200 into $1000 with about 60 hours play doing $5.20 double or nothings on pokerstars so I have a fair idea of double or nothing strategy.

There I was paying only 4% rake per sit and go I always multi tabled played 15 at a time. If i won 8 out of 15 thats only $2 profit due to the $8 payed in rake. but note if I had payed 5.50 i would have lost $2.50 assuming I only won 8 out of 15 of these.

now if the rake had been at 15% like yours is, winning 8 of 15 is now losing me $6.25. of course I had a better record then that and usually won between 9 out of every 15.

Thats a lot higher then most and maybe there was a bit of luck involved but I think things like folding that AK made the difference.

if your micro bank roll then do the $1.10s thats less rake and eventually move up to the $5.20s paying much less rake is important.

There is definitely money to be made from double or nothings like there is from almost all formats of poker but when the rake is to high there is rarely money to be made.

You have to learn double or nothing strat too as well it is very different from cash tables, tournament or sit and go poker.

I think I might write a strategy page on it for people here sometime.

In my experience these double up sit n gos are the easiest tournies to beat on a regular basis but you need to be able to fold best hand and wait to get paid. I quit playing them even though i was winning because it is a bastardization of the game. It just feels wrong to throw away best hands to finish 5th. I play on a small site (carbon) and when they first introduced them a few months back the strategy other players used was so bad it was hard to lose but after a few months more players caught on and they became a little harder to cash on.

was at this stage not long ago. I played a lot of $2-3 SNG's and managed to get over the $250 mark eventually.

I took a shot at the double or nothings a few months ago because I saw more than a few people playing 5-10 of them at a time. I thought it would be fairly easy based on that and the fact I would attempt to exploit those players. Nevertheless, I believe it came down to having to win 6 out of 10? just to break even. After playing a few at a time here or there I definitely had a few bad beats come my way and quit playing them all together. Having changed my successful 1-table gameplan into multiple tables didn't bode well, at least for the time being. I suppose even if you were just breaking even, which would never satisfy myself, at least at the micro stakes, high stakes might be, it would be worth the vps alone.

I am inclined to agree with the comments made thus far. They are slow to build, and can be chancey, and may not contribute to your bankroll in a speedy way. But a few are ok I guess as long as you can win more than 80% of them. Good luck.

why not, but i say it more trend to more conservative player

depends what stake and how many your playing at once. When I do them I do 15 at a time and only need to win 9/15 for a reasonable profit.

thats 60% btw.

I suppose if your playing less tables at a time you would need to win a higher % for fast bank roll growth.

but for practicable purposes I will assume out of 100 sit and goes. now if we are playing the turbo double or nothings on pokerstars lets say $5.20 level, then we need to attain a 10% ROI really or there abouts as this is what top professionals say a winning player should be making from standard sit and go single tables. so we would have staked $520 if we played 100 of these. therefore we would need to get back $572. in order to do that we would need to win 57.2% to of these.

If however your doing the non turbos which charge 8% rake you would be staking $540 and thus would need to get back $594. thus you would need to win 59.4% of these to achieve 10% roi.

these figures are not unrealistic and I generaly find I achieve close to 15% ROI on these. I believe its the lower rake that gives me the ROI boost. Well actually I don't just believe i know.

I've found that playing higher stake's SnG's in conjuntion with multi-tabling low limit game's is a good way to improve your bank roll. But I def agree with luke...the rake is ridiculous if you're only playing for a few measly dollars.

I used to play them but don't think they are worth it now.
Regular Sit N Gos are more profitable for skilled players imo, and more interesting to play.

yes there worth it, if you can be smart player and not dump your chops you will easily cash in them and build a solid bankroll

all forms of poker are, assuming the rake isn't too large you can make a decent profit and boost your bank roll provided you are playing better then your competition. The only exception I would say are Multi table tournaments as these you can make huge dividends from but it is not uncommon for even the best to go through hundreds before they get the big cash. I have a friend who has won $32000 from mtts but he tells me has lost $3000 on the trot before suddenly cashing for $7000.

sit and goes cash etc yeah all good if you know what your doing just depends what you decide you want to adapt to.

I've been using the DON sit n gos on cake as a way to build a bankroll and give me the opportunity to play at higher stakes with lower risk. I have been playing them in sort of a steps format. This is my plan:

$2.20 win $4 end roll=4.00
$3.30 win $6 end roll=6.70
$5.35 win $10 end roll=11.35
$10.70 win $20 end roll=20.65
$16.00 win $30 end roll=34.65
$26.75 win $50 end roll=57.90

Sometimes I have played on to the $35.25 buy in just because it happens to be a 6 man game and I find those even easier to cash in. I have built my bankroll from $10 initial to $274 now. It's been almost a week. Note that I've had 2 days where I lost 3 games in a row, and I saw that as time to quit for the day to minimize my loss.

I don't know if the Double or Nothings are worth it because I don't play them - however if you find them profitable (I'd consider winning more than 2/3 to be profitable) and generate money at a fast enough pace - then so be it.

Is the double or nothing on Full Tilt by any chance? If you don't have rakeback, any SnG with a rake above 10% would be hard to profit handsomely in.

It is not really worth it if your playing for a dollar playing higher stakes makes a higher reward. Its a good way to build your bankroll if you play it right. There are a lot of players who play it for all the chips puhing all in on lots of hands just let them take people out. I have also seen people who fold every hand I always raise their blind.

i dont know im very new to poker as well i keep on losing all my bankroll. its like i dont know when to stop playn

I play on UB, Bodog, and cake most of the time and haven't fond any double up SnG's there. Who's got 'em. Sounds like a grea way to add to my bankroll. I play a lot of SnG's and place about 40% of the time (yes really). I'm having some issues at pokerstars rite now because of someone else with very similar profile having screwed up and cannot deposit there, soo if they are only site that has thewe i'm SOL.

i would play both personaly its both worth the money

The low level buyin at pokerstars seem kind of tough. Table stats were 17/12 and the turbo lasted 47 minutes!

I think the cake network DoN are easier to beat.

Stars has them for sure. I think cake has them. Bodog has something similar to don's but there a little different. FT does not have them and haven't seem them at UB.

yea i made a decent amount playing these. i find everyone plays much tighter since to get to that 5 spot so i bluff alot more than i usually do. unless your playing really small buy in. im not sure it will work on a $1.15 game

double or nothing are atrocious what would be the difference be between those 10 man double or nothing and HU ???

Both are really just a waste of time.
Get more value and play satties where 1/4 wins. Like the 26.00 to the 109 or blt satties on tilt and sont forget the 6.50 mtt to 26.00 token these are all very easy to cash if you play uber tight.

Let me work these out for anyone 5.00 + 50p
5.50 x 10times = £55
so if you win 5 times out of 10 (50%) that would be £50 so you would be £5 down
So anything else would be PROFIT
AND IF YOU GET 35% rakeback 35% of 50p is 17p right
so your rakeback would be 1.70.

all makes sence now. its written down

I've built bankrolls playing the sit'ngos, however, it does require you to play a diifferent strategy than you would typically play. A good deal, however, if you're patient and willing to fold good cards and avoid pre-flop all-ins.

yeh i agree...patients is the key and even folding big hands pre flop is a good idea if someone shoves

Neither are possible except at the $1s imo.

Not only possible, that is exactly the range for me...two last night averaging 30 mins and 7 hands at the $10 level, Turbo.

Wally

PS: next one, 'll send you a copy of stats if I can copy and paste.

Sample size? Anyone can run hot in a small sample. I have had more than 10+ streaks of 10 consecutive wins at the 10s, yet I am a 7.5% winner (about 56% itm) over the long haul and one of the biggest winners in DoNs at my stakes.

Thought I'd play two of these for you tonight at same time ... the time was 37 minutes with 8 of 52 hands played for first DON; and the 2nd DON was 45 minutes with 8 of 65 hands played. Respectively, the tournament numbers were 238280363 and 238280388.

Both of these strayed a slightly from last nights DONs, but still really close to the 25 to 35 minutes and 6 to 8 hands. Anyways, these are simply a guideline measurement ...actually, I have had as little as 20 minutes and 5 hands played. GL mate, Wally


.MsgBody-text, .MsgBody-text * { font: 10pt monospace; }PokerStars Tournament #238280363, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $10.00/$0.40 USD
10 players
Total Prize Pool: $100.00 USD
Tournament started 2010/01/31 22:05:11 ET


Dear bullish06,

You finished the tournament in 1st place. A USD 20.00 award has been credited to your Real Money account.


Congratulations!

Thank you for participating.



.MsgBody-text, .MsgBody-text * { font: 10pt monospace; }PokerStars Tournament #238280388, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $10.00/$0.40 USD
10 players
Total Prize Pool: $100.00 USD
Tournament started 2010/01/31 22:05:39 ET


Dear bullish06,

You finished the tournament in 1st place. A USD 20.00 award has been credited to your Real Money account.


Congratulations!

Thank you for participating.

... so your sample size is 2? No one has been able to sustain anything close to 70% over the long haul. Any sample size less than around 500 is meaningless imo.

WurlyQ,
I don't know where you get a sample size of 2 (guess you only count tonights 2 games). Obviously I played 2 last night since I mentioned that earlier and obviously too I have played many more than four since I wrote a post based on something.

I must admit I have NOT played 500 games of DON (and I doubt you have neither nor likely anybody else we know).

I have not recorded how many games of DON I have actually played, but I probably have played maybe 50 to 60 and I do average around 80 to 85 % ITM ... mostly at the $10 buy-in.

I wrote the post on this thread in order to maybe assist others with their play of the DON since I find it to be one of the easier and less risky ways to add to ones bankroll.

I agree that a population sample of only 50 to 60 DON tournaments may not be as adequate as one of 500, but that is what it is...take it or leave it. I certainly did not intend to get into a pi**ing contest with you or anyone. I was simply attempting to contribute to this thread.

BTW, do you still play these DONs on PokerStars? If you play on FullTilt, is there a "similar" type tournament and if so, what is it called? When you play the DON, what is your strategy to get the 70% ITM and how many hands do you average and how long is the average game? I would think your average game "time" would have to be consistent with mine as long as you are also playing the $10 Turbo DON. Maybe we will be lucky enough to be on the same table sometime in the future.

My best to you, Wally