Donks and disrespect

This is something that I've always wondered about.

Why does it seem like so many members/players are quick to label players as donks, resort to name-calling, and sometimes show utter disrespect at the tables? I know the term 'donk' in poker means a person who plays bad at the tables, but I think the term itself gets thrown around way too loosely. Too many people either generalize a group of players as 'donks'-"I hate freerolls because they're all full of donks!" or they are quick to label a player as a donk-"I can't believe that donk raised with J10s UTG and beat my AQ!" I actually find that this generalized labeling of players to be very disrespectful. I'm not saying that there aren't bad players out there, but I don't think its right to be so quick to judge someone. Lets take a look at freerolls because they're known for being full of 'donks'. Freerolls are not only perfect for those who want to build a bankroll, but they're perfect for those who are learning the game as well. If a player makes an obvious mistake at the table and you do not know them at all-are they a donk or they a new player trying to learn? You don't if they're new or not, but are quick to label them as a bad player. Is that really fair? Not everyone who plays bad is a bad player, so don't be so quick to judge.

It seems like a lot of people view poker as a 'who is right vs who is wrong' battle. If an opponent doen't play to their liking or how they would play, they usually label that opponent as a bad player. Instead of learning to adjust thier strategy so they can exploit their opponents obvious weaknesses, some players will continue to play the same way and then complain when their opponent is 'playing wrong' when in fact its them who is playing just as bad.

Take this for example: You are an aggressive player with AKs who raised preflop and was called by someone who you know is a calling-station. You bluff on all streets with pot-sized bets only to lose on the river by the opponent who called you down with 29o and paired their 2 on the flop.

What a donkey, right? Well, yes-I guess you could say he is one. His play is obviously bad, but what about yourself? Do you label yourself a donk just as quick as you label your opponent? Probably not, right? Its probably because you feel like you were playing correctly and making the so-called 'right moves' and your opponent wasn't. However, take a step back and look at what you really did. You tried to bluff a calling station-is that really the best strategy against these types of players? No, right? So, is your play not just as equally bad as your opponents?

"But I had AK and he had 29! I had the better hand and lost!" This is another thing that I feel needs to be discussed: being result oriented. Many players are too 'best hand' obssessed and they take losing to an inferior hand as a 'bad beat' way too often. What I think some players tend to forget is that poker is a game of decisions-making the right decisions will benefit you more in the long run than making the wrong ones. Losing with AA to much weaker hand will have little effect on your long term game if you've been making the correct desions up that point and afterwards. Its impossible for a single hand to win all of the time and thats something some players need to understand. However, I think some players are tunnel-visioned and sometimes do not think about the long term when facing a recent beat or bad play by an opponent. I'll admit, I sometimes lose focus of the long term goals and become result oriented. Sometimes I'll get upset and tilt for a bit and there is nothing wrong with it. Everyone does it, but the difference is the players who are able bounce back from it. Those who are able to take a beat or a string of beats but still focus on the long term will strive better than those who view poker as hand vs hand situations.

A funny thing about the bad beats is a majority of them are not even bad beats at all. They're just standard losses that are going to occur. Again, this goes back to being 'best hand' obsessed. AK vs 29 is going to lose 30% of the time even though AK is the much better hand. I suggest that some players plug a few random hands into an odds calculator and you'll see a lot 70/30-60/40 situations. I'm not saying that calling with hands like 29 or worse is a sound play or anything, but this is just an example of being result oriented.

Another thing is the next time you suffer a 'bad beat' and think about calling the opponent a donk or anything else, look over the hand again. And I dont mean look at the results, look at how everything played out. And ask yourself if you've made the correct decision on every street vs this particular opponent. Going back to my example of bad decisions vs a bad player = bad plays by both parties. And if there is anything you did wrong or could have done better, instead of being quick to call someone a donk, improve from it.

I take pride in knowing that I am able to show respect to my opponents, no matter what happens. And I find it very respectful when I see another player at table type 'NH' and 'GG' to an opponent who just beat them in a typical 'bad beat' situation. Not only does it show good sportsmanship, but a lot of character and who they are as a person. Its actually not hard to do and looks so much better than berating a player and calling them names.

Like I always say, "don't be disrepectin' my donk brethren." Good points, Philthy. The people complaining about donks rarely are exhibiting stellar play themselves. Just make adjustments.

Great Points and it is all within a standard variance after all is it not? Besides if it were not for us donkeys how else would you make money?

Good point and that will be in the next installment 'Why you should embrace the so-called 'donks' and not push them away'. Routinely bad players are where good players make their money from a majority of the time. I know, because good CC players have taken so much money from me.

Also, my OP was written on the spot with just a lot of stuff popping up into my head. I didn't really brainstorm and really collect my thoughts, so it seems to be all over the place. If I'm not lazy, I'll rewrite a better post and try to have it edited.

Great thread, Phil. I totally agree.

I wrote a couple of blog posts a while back about this very subject:

Stick's Poker Blog: Hey Man! Don't Scare the Donkey!

Stick's Poker Blog: Why Complain About Playing Against Donks?

Thanks, Stick.

I'd like to add that the point of my post is not to be so quick to judge another player. I see a lot of basic mistakes and bad plays made by people who complain about an opponent's bad play. So, don't be so quick to label someone, especially if you're not that much better.

Very nice post I agree, I mean I concur, I'm teasing. Anyways I think it comes down to those name callers really just need to blame someone else for their loss, I've noticed they seem to not have the greatest hands either, AK suited or not, or A whatever doesn't justify some of the betting I've seen going on lately, then they get pissed at someone who actually has a hand and beats them, I don't understand it much.
I was in a game the other day, it was a big deal to me, prize pool was 5,000, I won the ticket to play, rebuys/addons were 25.00 which I can't afford, I made it past the break , sadly, he raised preflop with 6 7 os, notice the last entry after the hh, it was his comment on his hand, certainly I wasn't telling him "NH" after that, but I also didn't call him names (well not ones he could hear), I agree with what you say about the bad beats, if it had been I would have made a "NH" comment, had I on that hand I think it would only encourage his imo bad playing.


Everleaf Gaming Game #56544982
***** Hand history for game #56544982 *****
Blinds 75/150 NL Hold'em - 2008/09/13 - 20:14:58
Table 2
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players: 10
Seat 1: UpMunster ( 6923 )
Seat 2: cash6666 ( 9855 )
Seat 3: Bingo_Lady ( 6775 )
Seat 4: silverslick ( 8187 )
Seat 5: lilybo ( 2039 )
Seat 6: CDW1111 ( 8210 )
Seat 7: luxgym ( 6820 )
Seat 8: krisbg ( 8330 )
Seat 9: kenjiro ( 1825 )
Seat 10: minaug2001 ( 7666 )
silverslick: posts small blind [$ 75]
lilybo: posts big blind [$ 150]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lilybo [ 9d, qc ]
CDW1111 folds
luxgym folds
krisbg folds
kenjiro folds
minaug2001 calls [$ 150]
UpMunster folds
cash6666 raises [$ 675]
silverslick folds
lilybo raises [$ 1889]
minaug2001 folds
cash6666 calls [$ 1364]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, 6d, qs ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5c ]
** Dealing River ** [ ac ]
cash6666 wins 4303 chips from main pot with three of a kind, sixes [ ac, qs, 6h, 6c, 6d ]

cash6666: ugly

This is taken from another thread. Its an example of a member calling someone a donk while making some very obvious poor decisions themselves.Not posted we can all see what a bad play this member made. This should only be viewed as an example.

Phil your such a donk ! Lol jk!

Seriously think about online poker without donkeys and bad players out there. Thats a scary thought...Id actually have to learn something about poker to win, sounds like too much effort already!

great post
i've been labeled a donk many occasions, in fact, it probably helped me win the CC freeroll today.
But even with some luck on all in pushes when shortstacked, it still has to take some skill to pull it out in the end,,,,right?

It certainly stings losing to lesser hand, but hey, thats poker
sometimes people push with those bad hands because you (and i mean myself), portray a loose image at table.

Play stronger, less bad callers, i guess....especially with higher stakes.

You'll never see or hear me criticize another palyer's play at the tanle for 2 reasons.

1. I'm no poker expert and I make a ton of mistakes myself
2. If someone is playing bad, it's against the interest of my wallet to point out their mistakes, which may help them play better.

It is frustrating when you get all your chips in with the best hand and get sucked out by someone who shoul have never called you in the first place, but that's just the way poker works. I WANT people to call my all-ins when I have the best hand, even if they're pot odds are wrecked and they're drawing to a 2 outer.

No one plays perfect poker, not even the top pros. It bothers me when people start being rude at the table about bad play. First off, I don't like rudeness, second - well, let he without sin cast the first stone.

Great post Phil

I think that when someone is calling someone else a donk, what they are usually saying is "look at me and how great I am at poker" because they equate losing a hand to being not very good. So to reinforce in their own mind that they are good they tell everyone how bad the other guy is.

Of course good players not only love playing against bad players but don't care what people think as long as they win in the long run.


As for the freerolls are full of donks gang who complain about them shoving every hand. I would love nothing more than to play in $109 MTTs where people played like that. If you can't beat bad players how in earth do they expect to beat the decent ones.

Exactly

Think about the players you see on TV - ever see Doyle Brunson call someone a donkey or belittle them? Howard Lederer? Allen Cunningham? Erick Lindgren? Daniel Negreanu? I'll be surprised if there's many (any, even) examples out there. These guys know they're good, they don't need to call someone a donkey to reinforce that.

Then look at the players who do insult their opponents - Mike Matusow, Shieky, Jean-Robert Bellande (Hellmuth is in a special category all of his own, IMO, and Devilfish probably is too). In Matusow's case, and I suspect in the others as well, they're players who know they're not necessarily the best in the world so they're using the insults to remind themselves that at least they're better than someone.

So don't be the one to berrate players at the table. Not only do you run the risk of scaring the fish away, you're also making yourself look bad.

/ psychoanalysis

It isn't even that you "make money from donks". Everybody deserves to be able to log on and play poker without having to deal with immature people name calling and unneeded "comments" on a person's play. Not to mention that everybody is a donk compared to somebody else unless you are in a very select few.

A donk is usualy a person who just took your chips,even if he had AA and you had AK.I really dont pay attention to chat unless I have a friend there.Ive complained many times about someone sucking out on me with ACE-Rag and people just say*Any 2 cards can win*so now I really dont care what anybody thinks or says,most likely my chat is off cause I realy dont want to be bothered or care.

You make me laugh.

Who are you telling this to?

It's a threshold when you realize the difference between "I hate donks. I hope they all die, calling my raise with 95o!!!!" and "Donks are good for the game."

Sick post, Phil.

Thanks, this really means a lot to have post receive your approval.

This also goes for iRex, Mr. Sticker, and a lot of other members who I really look up to.

Man, keep making posts about poker theory! You do well in those. And just practice your micro-stakes hold 'em and be consistent! And talk to the members who you respect (PM them, if you want!) with hands, and you will be sick in no time! I had exactly $0.60 in my account 6 months ago. You can do it, man, just strive for it!

We only love Donks when they DON'T suck out on us. I have made some change from donks, but I cant tell you a hand in which I called is ALL in crap and took him down near as clear as I can tell you the times I had AA KK, busted by the infamous 72o.

Thanks for the kind words, again I really appreciate it. I will definitely start seeking the help from other members, especially the deeper I get into my micro-stakes grind.

It shouldn't be about what you were busted by. It should be about your hand vs. his range, and if you crushed his face (KK vs. 72o is a good example), it doesn't matter if you busted him or not. You got it in good.

ME 2

Hey Guys leave us "Donks" alone!! We'll pad your BR'S


No, on a serious note I don't get into it at the tables its just not worth the time and energy, get it in good and whatever flops so be it. Sometimes you win um and sometimes you don't.

Hey remember this, everybody could be a donk for a day or 2 or ........

Solid post Phil

What makes a donk..? I have seen and played against pro's and good players who also play this way, its all about adjusting to the table. You are always going to play against (donks) in freerolls and micro games because the stakes are so small.

Making a "move" when you are short stacked, having position and/or implied odds or knowing the people at the table you are on is a complete different concept than playing J 4 because "if the flop comes high or low I am covered either way" (yes I have heard those words spoken and it wasn't even online).
You can not know if someone is a donkey from one or two hands, I have on more than one occasion played really bad cards and gave away chips in order to get callers later on. Please remember that doing this early in a tournament is NOT a good idea in my opinon. you will spend time and chips setting up your table just to get moved, wait until you are past the 1 hr break when table changes are less common.

Nice post Philthy,

Tbh I hardly ever call someone a DONK, although I may some times ask them a question. Like how did you call that? or You called with 2 7? I hardly ever resort to name calling...which leads to Stick's post about not scaring them away. I remember when I first started playing on FT and my friend was watching me..I lost AA to some random hand and flipped....then my friend said(it was a cash game) "don't scare them away, next time you get AA and they play like that you'lll get those chips back!" But also like you said it's disrespectful too, it's just not about not scaring them away...cuz technically, theres toomany to scare away

awesome post phil...more plzthks

The most I say in chat after getting sucked out to some crazy hand is "LOL WOW"

I only started that after reading This Post


seriouslky nice post though philthy, I am always amazed at the amount of down talking there is at some tables.

I'm glad you finally posted this phil!
I remember when we talked about it on MSN and it's good to see you pour your thought into the solid post that is the OP.

As for the content. I agree but if I look at myself I know I do it too.
I call them names, in chat or in my head, and I get mad, I tilt after I get sucked out on or I lose an all in I should've won etc etc.

But if you get down to it, many of those situations when I get pissed at the "donks" is a situation where I made a big mistake myself. Playing the hand badly or not adapting to their style like you said.

So in the end that's another thing I'll need to improve on .

Wow, lots of approval going on in this thread.

It means a lot to me, thank you all.

I never answer "honking horns." When players use foul language or abusively rude to folks, I report them. When rude or fulgar, I simply block their chat. (Some sites enable individual blocks, as well as turning off chat totally.) Then at the final table(s), I'll turn the chatters back on; that is, 'til they go off again. [FYI, donkeys are noble animals; many farmers use them to guard their livestock against predators ... every pun intended here.]

Great post. I've gotten to where I just turn the chat off or ignore it. I actually can't understand how people can have such long involved conversations whether they're cursing each other or not, whithout it affecting their play. I certainly slows the game down.

If someone make what i think is a poor play I just make a note of it to use later when there is a tight call to make. No need to tell them about it or they might improve. Also my thinking on what is good and bad play may be completely wrong.

Donk is to poker, as Noob is to video games. And both are very overrated and overused words.

Nice post, the term "donk" is thrown around alot in the stakes I play, so much that it doesnt even seem to have a meaning anymore.

If I get called a donk from now on I will thank them for the compliment.