Donk?

#2 11th October 2009, 7:00 PM

You're letting it get to you too much. Just brush it off.

#3 11th October 2009, 7:40 PM

This always happens in 1/2 cent. You can't expect them to fold anything.

#4 11th October 2009, 9:31 PM

You have to remember that the person calling you a Donk, just lost. I always just let them vent and move on. The real problem is that because you have been paying attention, you made a call based upon past experience with the player. You could not put them on that hand. So you did nothing wrong, do not let it bother you. You run into these types at every level of play online. The one thing to remember is that if they really think you are a donk, then you can use it to extract $$ from them when you have big hands. They are always trying to get it back.

#5 12th October 2009, 4:30 AM

Not that bad of a play....you run into so much crap there at those stakes its usually just fine to get it all in with AK suited.

#6 12th October 2009, 4:38 AM

Lol you gotta let that roll off, I have been called more than that over a bodog password. If you don't know someone who cares what they call you?
I personally don't care at all

#7 12th October 2009, 5:03 AM

Every time you win a big hand against someone with low self esteem or some uneducated kid you'll get a tonguelashing. Just chock it up to them crying into their milk and cookies.

You did well. You won. Nice job.

#8 12th October 2009, 5:17 AM

it seems like the same situations i always see on fulltilt in the micro stakes people carnt fold hands im never folding ak in a lower stakes table because people push on rubbish you got lucky in the end as fate dealt u the best hand id be happy with the win and dont listen to negativity from other players

#9 12th October 2009, 6:23 AM

looks like stardard play at a 01/02 table to me. That's why i gave up on 01/02.

#10 12th October 2009, 7:43 AM

I don't know, a four bet shove usually screams AA or KK. On 2nl you never know though. Called you a donk cause they were upset about their AA getting cracked. It's poker, who cares, I wouldn't. It's only 2nl.

Now are you a donk? To answer that question depends on what your thought process was. Did you say to yourself OMG AK suited call? Or did you pause and think about the situation? Did you think about the pf raise she made? What could she be raising UTG+1? You three bet her and then she shoves, what would she shove with, what kind of range? Did she snap shove? did she pause before she shoved? Also you had a guy in the BB that also flatted your three bet, did you think about him, what he was going to do? In this situation the BB doesn't really matter because his stack is so small, however if he had a full stack you would need to think about that too.

Now lets think about what you said about the two players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike1Nap4

So my question is that this person with AA called me a donk for reraising then calling with AK suited.
Now after playing with the two callers for an hour I didn't put them on huge hands. Guy with KJ called
every raise. The girl with AA raise the same amount with middle-low pairs plus was trying to buy a lot
of pots. I did get lucky with the flush but felt I made the right call after observing the table. Don't
think I deserved the donk comment. I think she was mad that I cracked her AA. She was very rude after that.

First question I have, did she ever four bet shove pre flop before? You also said the KJ guy was calling everything. So we have to assume we are looking at a three way AIPF pot. I ran it on Poker stove to show you how that move probably wasn't the best move. We have to give the girl that shoved credit for some what of a hand. I just used 99+, AJs+, AKo and I used just a random hand for the KJ guy that was, well random.

............equity..... win ..........tie.. pots won....... pots tied
Hand 0: 20.761% 20.38% 00.38% 14179170708 266473258.50 { random }
Hand 1: 37.637% 31.87% 05.77% 22171885080 4015631041.50 { AdKd }
Hand 2: 41.602% 35.92% 05.68% 24993638733 3952674219.00 { 99+, AJs+, AKo }

We make money in poker by making our oponants make mistakes, which is how we come out ahead over time. We want to shove or call a shove when we are ahead and have the best chance to win. We don't want to call when we are behind. Now, if you were last to act and were ok with what is probably at best a coin flip then that's ok. But it's a losing play over time. You can see by the stats above you are behind and only have a 32% chance to win. Which means you lose there about 62% of the time. So I don't think you realize the situation you were actually in.

Now if we plug in the actual hands that were played you can see how far behind you were.

.............equity...... win...... tie ..pots won ..pots tied
Hand 0: 09.984% 09.74% 00.25% 133493 3360.33 { KcJh }
Hand 1: 10.783% 10.16% 00.62% 139331 8476.33 { AdKd }
Hand 2: 79.233% 78.75% 00.48% 1079486 6607.33 { AcAs }

You were dominated, it wasn't a coin flip, you lucked out. Now normally when you Have AK, you are not running into AA or KK that often, cause you are in fact holding an A and a K yourself. So again, it depends on the four bet shove, has she done that before, if so what was she holding before, do you have an idea of her range? Lets look at AKs vs QQ.

...........equity..... win....... tie ....pots won.. pots tied
Hand 0: 46.049% 45.83% 00.22% 18834720 89058.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 53.951% 53.73% 00.22% 22082460 89058.00 { QQ }

Even though it's a coin flip, in the long run you are still going to lose this more than you win. Let add another hand in there and see how the AK stacks up, I'll use the KJ again.

............equity .......win....... tie... pots won ....pots tied
Hand 0: 37.838% 37.47% 00.37% 110936988 1093548.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 53.192% 53.06% 00.13% 157113180 378372.00 { QQ }
Hand 2: 08.971% 08.60% 00.37% 25467228 1093548.00 { KJo }

One more time with a middle pair.

...............equity..... win...... tie.. pots won... pots tied
Hand 0: 37.021% 36.58% 00.44% 108309276 1304418.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 42.187% 42.08% 00.11% 124598376 310944.00 { 77 }
Hand 2: 20.791% 20.35% 00.44% 60255432 1304418.00 { KJo }

And a final one with the third hand also having an A.

...............equity.... win...... tie.... pots won... pots tied
Hand 0: 36.800% 35.89% 00.91% 106258644 2698578.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 43.504% 43.41% 00.10% 128515248 293832.00 { 77 }
Hand 2: 19.696% 18.78% 00.91% 55617984 2698578.00 { AJo }

You are still behind a middle pair here with AK, and when you add that third hand in there with one of your outs you drop even farther behind.

I haven't even talked about odds up yet. However I wanted to show you where your hand stood. You three bet to .30, she four bet shoved you making the pot $3.55 at that point. So now you have to call for $2.45 more to win $3.55, which is giving you 1.44 to 1 odds. We still have random guy to act as well. He's so short, and has been calling everything we can assume he will cal her just to see what that will do to our odds. Assuming he calls with his .79 you are now getting 1.76 to 1. Don't get in the habit of assuming someone will call the shove as well, but I think in this example it's ok, cause he was so short. So now we look at our original data.

............equity..... win ..........tie.. pots won....... pots tied
Hand 0: 20.761% 20.38% 00.38% 14179170708 266473258.50 { random }
Hand 1: 37.637% 31.87% 05.77% 22171885080 4015631041.50 { AdKd }
Hand 2: 41.602% 35.92% 05.68% 24993638733 3952674219.00 { 99+, AJs+, AKo }

We have 38% equity and we win 32% of the time, so we need at least 3 to 1 odds just to break even. So what the pot odds are telling us is we need to fold here. The random KJ guy complicates things a little, lets take him out. We will use the original odds of 1.44 to 1.

..............equity...... win ......tie.... pots won.... pots tied
Hand 0: 47.617% 38.25% 09.36% 117904104 28858680.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 52.383% 43.02% 09.36% 132593256 28858680.00 { 99+, AJs+, AKo }

As I said before we need to give the four bet shove credit for something, I used the original 99+, AJs+, AKo. Here we have 48% equity and we win 38% of the time, so we need to be getting at least 2 to 1 to make this profitable over the long run. In this case you are only getting 1.44 to 1. Again, pot odds say to fold here.

#11 12th October 2009, 7:49 AM

very nice response trigg...very in depth and i actually read the whole thing.. good work

#12 12th October 2009, 8:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriggaLos

I don't know, a four bet shove usually screams AA or KK. On 2nl you never know though. Called you a donk cause they were upset about their AA getting cracked. It's poker, who cares, I wouldn't. It's only 2nl.

Now are you a donk? To answer that question depends on what your thought process was. Did you say to yourself OMG AK suited call? Or did you pause and think about the situation? Did you think about the pf raise she made? What could she be raising UTG+1? You three bet her and then she shoves, what would she shove with, what kind of range? Did she snap shove? did she pause before she shoved? Also you had a guy in the BB that also flatted your three bet, did you think about him, what he was going to do? In this situation the BB doesn't really matter because his stack is so small, however if he had a full stack you would need to think about that too.

Now lets think about what you said about the two players.

First question I have, did she ever four bet shove pre flop before? You also said the KJ guy was calling everything. So we have to assume we are looking at a three way AIPF pot. I ran it on Poker stove to show you how that move probably wasn't the best move. We have to give the girl that shoved credit for some what of a hand. I just used 99+, AJs+, AKo and I used just a random hand for the KJ guy that was, well random.

............equity..... win ..........tie.. pots won....... pots tied
Hand 0: 20.761% 20.38% 00.38% 14179170708 266473258.50 { random }
Hand 1: 37.637% 31.87% 05.77% 22171885080 4015631041.50 { AdKd }
Hand 2: 41.602% 35.92% 05.68% 24993638733 3952674219.00 { 99+, AJs+, AKo }

We make money in poker by making our oponants make mistakes, which is how we come out ahead over time. We want to shove or call a shove when we are ahead and have the best chance to win. We don't want to call when we are behind. Now, if you were last to act and were ok with what is probably at best a coin flip then that's ok. But it's a losing play over time. You can see by the stats above you are behind and only have a 32% chance to win. Which means you lose there about 62% of the time. So I don't think you realize the situation you were actually in.

Now if we plug in the actual hands that were played you can see how far behind you were.

.............equity...... win...... tie ..pots won ..pots tied
Hand 0: 09.984% 09.74% 00.25% 133493 3360.33 { KcJh }
Hand 1: 10.783% 10.16% 00.62% 139331 8476.33 { AdKd }
Hand 2: 79.233% 78.75% 00.48% 1079486 6607.33 { AcAs }

You were dominated, it wasn't a coin flip, you lucked out. Now normally when you Have AK, you are not running into AA or KK that often, cause you are in fact holding an A and a K yourself. So again, it depends on the four bet shove, has she done that before, if so what was she holding before, do you have an idea of her range? Lets look at AKs vs QQ.

...........equity..... win....... tie ....pots won.. pots tied
Hand 0: 46.049% 45.83% 00.22% 18834720 89058.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 53.951% 53.73% 00.22% 22082460 89058.00 { QQ }

Even though it's a coin flip, in the long run you are still going to lose this more than you win. Let add another hand in there and see how the AK stacks up, I'll use the KJ again.

............equity .......win....... tie... pots won ....pots tied
Hand 0: 37.838% 37.47% 00.37% 110936988 1093548.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 53.192% 53.06% 00.13% 157113180 378372.00 { QQ }
Hand 2: 08.971% 08.60% 00.37% 25467228 1093548.00 { KJo }

One more time with a middle pair.

...............equity..... win...... tie.. pots won... pots tied
Hand 0: 37.021% 36.58% 00.44% 108309276 1304418.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 42.187% 42.08% 00.11% 124598376 310944.00 { 77 }
Hand 2: 20.791% 20.35% 00.44% 60255432 1304418.00 { KJo }

And a final one with the third hand also having an A.

...............equity.... win...... tie.... pots won... pots tied
Hand 0: 36.800% 35.89% 00.91% 106258644 2698578.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 43.504% 43.41% 00.10% 128515248 293832.00 { 77 }
Hand 2: 19.696% 18.78% 00.91% 55617984 2698578.00 { AJo }

You are still behind a middle pair here with AK, and when you add that third hand in there with one of your outs you drop even farther behind.

I haven't even talked about odds up yet. However I wanted to show you where your hand stood. You three bet to .30, she four bet shoved you making the pot $3.55 at that point. So now you have to call for $2.45 more to win $3.55, which is giving you 1.44 to 1 odds. We still have random guy to act as well. He's so short, and has been calling everything we can assume he will cal her just to see what that will do to our odds. Assuming he calls with his .79 you are now getting 1.76 to 1. Don't get in the habit of assuming someone will call the shove as well, but I think in this example it's ok, cause he was so short. So now we look at our original data.

............equity..... win ..........tie.. pots won....... pots tied
Hand 0: 20.761% 20.38% 00.38% 14179170708 266473258.50 { random }
Hand 1: 37.637% 31.87% 05.77% 22171885080 4015631041.50 { AdKd }
Hand 2: 41.602% 35.92% 05.68% 24993638733 3952674219.00 { 99+, AJs+, AKo }

We have 38% equity and we win 32% of the time, so we need at least 3 to 1 odds just to break even. So what the pot odds are telling us is we need to fold here. The random KJ guy complicates things a little, lets take him out. We will use the original odds of 1.44 to 1.

..............equity...... win ......tie.... pots won.... pots tied
Hand 0: 47.617% 38.25% 09.36% 117904104 28858680.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 52.383% 43.02% 09.36% 132593256 28858680.00 { 99+, AJs+, AKo }

As I said before we need to give the four bet shove credit for something, I used the original 99+, AJs+, AKo. Here we have 48% equity and we win 38% of the time, so we need to be getting at least 2 to 1 to make this profitable over the long run. In this case you are only getting 1.44 to 1. Again, pot odds say to fold here.

I started to read your post.. but then I got distracted by this random dancing kitty.

#13 12th October 2009, 9:51 PM

wow, ok, last time I put some thought into a post.

#14 12th October 2009, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriggaLos

wow, ok, last time I put some thought into a post.

I was just joking.. it was a great an insightful post.. I did actually read it all. And even though numbers is a big part of poker (and I am pretty good with numbers).. I never really thought that much into it.

The cat dancing pic is kind of an inside joke.. my girlfriend jokes around and says that I have ADD.

But dude, seriously, you have some of the best thought out poker posts on the site, and I do learn from them from time to time. So, keep doing what you're doing!

#15 12th October 2009, 11:02 PM

You have to realize that some players are just cry babies when they get unlucky.... when they are bullying their way through the tables and buying pots, and winning they dont think they seem like donks... but when someone notices how they are playing and takes a chance with a decent hand and they just happen to have a hand at that point they cry if they end up loosing, sore losers... their problem is that they need to learn how to actually play poker, solid poker that is

#16 12th October 2009, 11:13 PM

My standard answer to someone calling me a donk is Yep I am a member of Poker donkeys International, heeeehhaaawwww.

#17 12th October 2009, 11:19 PM

You gotta look up the definitions post, a "DONKEY" is something like: "You rat fink just beat my hand, u must be a DONKEY.

Conversley the Definition of "NH": How could you play that hand you donkey puke.

Great Analysis Trigga, bottom line, AKs is easily beaten.

Dancing kitty, lmfao

#18 13th October 2009, 2:12 AM

I only made that call because the person who shoved did this a few times on hands like A10o, KQs but never did with a pocket pair. Always tried to slow play it. The person behind me called every bet ever made. He was a calling station to matter what hand they hand. The person with AA would 4 bet/shove a lot, trying to take down the bigger pots right away. I know I probably made a mistake but I thought after playing with this person for a couple hours, I felt they had something other then a pocket pair and felt I was ahead. I guess you could say I donked on this one. You live, you learn, you get lucky.

#19 13th October 2009, 2:14 AM

Thank you for your in depth post Trigga. I've never really put that much thought into a play. Thank you for your reply

#20 13th October 2009, 2:17 AM

Well he obviously doesn't know what he is talking about, and you have to remember the fact that this is not LIVE play this is online. The person on the other end of the screen could have serious mental issues

#21 13th October 2009, 2:20 AM

I don't see anything wrong with what you did here.

Don't let the bad-mouthers get to you, just keep palying your game.

#22 13th October 2009, 2:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike1Nap4

I only made that call because the person who shoved did this a few times on hands like A10o, KQs but never did with a pocket pair. Always tried to slow play it. The person behind me called every bet ever made. He was a calling station to matter what hand they hand. The person with AA would 4 bet/shove a lot, trying to take down the bigger pots right away. I know I probably made a mistake but I thought after playing with this person for a couple hours, I felt they had something other then a pocket pair and felt I was ahead. I guess you could say I donked on this one. You live, you learn, you get lucky.

In that case I make the call in a heart beat. Just make sure you have plenty of time and have seen a lot of hands from someone before shipping your stack in that spot. Sounds like you had a good idea of their range on this one. Except you were wrong, but lucked out anyway . So now that we have all the info as I said, I probably do the same as you did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike1Nap4

Thank you for your in depth post Trigga. I've never really put that much thought into a play. Thank you for your reply

you are welcome.

Similar Threads for: Texas Hold'em Poker > Donk?
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
I flopped the nuts and the donk won	dufferdevon	General Poker	0	14th February 2008 2:51 AM

Play Texas Hold'em Online Poker \| Donk?
Bodog is one of the few poker sites for US players that also offers a Sportsbook and online casino games.	PokerStars is one of the best places to play poker online that accepts US players. Use PokerStars marketing code CCHAT for a $600 bonus. Note: No US Players Accepted.