DoN Collusion

runnerx289

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Hi I was told once to stay away from double or nothing sit and go's because they are a haven for collusion. And I know Stars got rid of there DoN sngs because of it but I was wondering why DoN are popular for collusion? I am struggling to see how? Also does anyone have any stories or articles on any cases of this? Thanks, I'll be interested in some responses. :)
 
Lucothefish

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Hi I was told once to stay away from double or nothing sit and go's because they are a haven for collusion. And I know Stars got rid of there DoN sngs because of it but I was wondering why DoN are popular for collusion? I am struggling to see how? Also does anyone have any stories or articles on any cases of this? Thanks, I'll be interested in some responses. :)

You will often see two bigstacks calling the shortie's all in on the bubble with any cards, it's a sort of implied collusion and doesn't require them to know each other at all - it just makes sense to gang up on the shortie from an icm perspective. If that one guy goes home, everyone else gets paid. This is not 'cheating', it's just smart poker.

As for actual collusion - I don't know how good your grasp of ICM is, but DoN's are heavily affected by very small movements in chips from one player to another. The shortest stack on the bubble is a dangerous place to be, and even a small 2bbs chip dump from a colluding big stack can negatively affect the equity of every person at the table, as there's no longer an imminent payout for everyone else.

I don't think I explained that very well, sorry. But I've just looked on google and here's an article that may explain it a bit better:

http://www.daleroxxu.co.uk/2010/05/49-player-chinese-cheating-scandal-on.html
 
runnerx289

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You will often see two bigstacks calling the shortie's all in on the bubble with any cards, it's a sort of implied collusion and doesn't require them to know each other at all - it just makes sense to gang up on the shortie from an icm perspective. If that one guy goes home, everyone else gets paid. This is not 'cheating', it's just smart poker.

As for actual collusion - I don't know how good your grasp of ICM is, but DoN's are heavily affected by very small movements in chips from one player to another. The shortest stack on the bubble is a dangerous place to be, and even a small 2bbs chip dump from a colluding big stack can negatively affect the equity of every person at the table, as there's no longer an imminent payout for everyone else.

I don't think I explained that very well, sorry. But I've just looked on google and here's an article that may explain it a bit better:

http://www.daleroxxu.co.uk/2010/05/49-player-chinese-cheating-scandal-on.html

Thanks a lot this helped me understand a lot better useful link too!
 
Blobweird123

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Very easily really. 2 friends sit down, one dumps to the others AI with junk and loses. Now the big stack colluder has an advantage over everyone at the table, esp in a 6max game where all he needs to do now is wait out 2 players and its over. I see alot of this in the first few hands at Bovada, but it's very easily a fish that just spews every game as well. Hard to say. Either way, i'm still winning and half the time off of the big stacks chips so if they are there, then they are doing a terrible job! Haha
 
Lucothefish

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Very easily really. 2 friends sit down, one dumps to the others AI with junk and loses. Now the big stack colluder has an advantage over everyone at the table, esp in a 6max game where all he needs to do now is wait out 2 players and its over. I see alot of this in the first few hands at Bovada, but it's very easily a fish that just spews every game as well. Hard to say. Either way, i'm still winning and half the time off of the big stacks chips so if they are there, then they are doing a terrible job! Haha

Surely this strategy loses to rake/variance? One player loses a buyin, the other maybe wins two?
 
Blobweird123

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I suppose your right lol. Have to be doing it this way at the Triple ups or higher. Nevermind my other post!
 
aa88wildbill

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Usually when this happens, it's two or three guys working together, depend on how many places are paid. Watch out for been raised up. One guy will raise, then you call, then the next guy will reraise. Another way you might be able to detect this is when you're in a hand with these guys if you fold the action will stop one where the other.
 
aa88wildbill

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They probably are also communicating over the telephone with one another. They can tell each other their cards and they will get to see 4 more cards then you do.
 
Poker Orifice

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aa88wildbill;2068661 depend on how many places are paid. [/quote said:
OP is referring to DoN's (Double or Nothing Sit 'n Goes, where 'half' the field gets paid).
 
LuckyBundy13

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DoN's are sooooooo boring. If you will play them, don't do it on Bovada. My 2cents.
 
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In DoNs, when 2-3 players have helping each other, they got very good chance bust other players out, like:
- one of colluding is short stack. The other are aggresive to other short stack, to bust him before they friend
- some with big stack can "send" some chips to short stack
- of course no chance that they will bust each other at bubble, regardless of cards
- plus of course they share info about their cards (it can help a lot sometimes, when you see extra 4 cards which you friends folded).

Overall, they can add enough to their profit to beat rake and variance.
 
Samango

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IMO it is probably enough that they may not chip dump etc. but merely soft-play each other.
Now each of them only needs to come in the top 5 with only 8 (real) opponents rather than 9 in a full table, or top 3 with only 4 (real) opponents 6-max.
That's enough of an edge to change the profitability of the game.
 
Poker Orifice

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If you will play them, don't do it on Bovada.
this ^
with players being anonymous, it'd be much easier for them to collude & way more difficult to watch for it/prove it. (obv.)
 
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Most obvious on bovada when short stack shoves on river and big stack only has to put in ten percent of his stack to call but folds instead. Happened multiple times on one table I was at.
 
steveiam

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Because of the payout it would make sense for the big stacks to call an allin from the short stack.Two chances to knock him out its just how it is in DoN's.Wether they know each other or not.
 
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Most obvious on bovada when short stack shoves on river and big stack only has to put in ten percent of his stack to call but folds instead. Happened multiple times on one table I was at.

I see this alot on bovada, often times it is just a player who does not know what he is doing. They don't understand stack management/tournament format and are still playing like it is a regular tournament where they would want to come in first place. Many times that fool folds not only to short stack but others that really can't hurt their stack either. I did it myself once, got down to bubble and my huge stack could control the play. Limp folded against small stack and kept raising another player who was talking crap during play. Literally was lol while he was saying he was reporting me for collusion. Never heard from bovada but collusion involves more than one, and I knew nobody talked to nobody and did it all on my own. Almost wish bovada had contacted me because when I knocked him out he used a racial slur.
 
GOIVIT

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I used to play a lot of DoN's and I can't ever remember thinking that several players were colluding, but cheating is as old as the game of poker.
 
bullishwwd

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Very easily really. 2 friends sit down, one dumps to the others AI with junk and loses. Now the big stack colluder has an advantage over everyone at the table, esp in a 6max game where all he needs to do now is wait out 2 players and its over. I see alot of this in the first few hands at Bovada, but it's very easily a fish that just spews every game as well. Hard to say. Either way, i'm still winning and half the time off of the big stacks chips so if they are there, then they are doing a terrible job! Haha
Yep, I tend to totally agree mate!

I would add that any "one table" game (SnG or Ring) lends itself to collusion. This is why it is even more important to "observe and learn" what is going on as you play these games.

Pay attention, play accordingly, and be patient.

I prefer the Triple-ups over Double-ups since they seem to yield better "value" for the buy-in.

Wally
 
bullishwwd

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Because of the payout it would make sense for the big stacks to call an allin from the short stack.Two chances to knock him out its just how it is in DoN's.Wether they know each other or not.
Steve, I agree with your comment.

But, I tend to "not fully agree" with your 'signature' statement ... "Every loss takes you one step closer to a win".

I think I actually understand the intent and inference made, but 'every loss can also take you one step closer to being broke'. BRM will help prevent it, but not insure it.
 
steveiam

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Steve, I agree with your comment.

But, I tend to "not fully agree" with your 'signature' statement ... "Every loss takes you one step closer to a win".

I think I actually understand the intent and inference made, but 'every loss can also take you one step closer to being broke'. BRM will help prevent it, but not insure it.

I think you have to believe that win is just around the corner,If you learn and are good enough you will win eventually. \You will have that day when your pairs stand up against the draws and you hit your draws.
 
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