Do the pros use math in their game?

Like pot odds / implied odds etc. Would pretty much all the pros use these because I remember brunson saying something about a lot of players rely too much on it rather than "feel" the game.

^I think most of the pros know all the numbers and they're contantly running through their head.

There are still a bunch of pros that dont use the maths as much, those dudes are just lucky donkies. =D

If you're not doing so in tournaments than you're obv. at a huge disadvantage. Not just calculating obvious stuff like pot odds & odds (%) chance of making our hand, implied odds, etc., but prob. even more so many (if not all by now these days?) have done plenty of equity calc. for late game play, resteals, etc. etc. (also for 3bet/call 3bet/fold ranges, ad infinitum). Surely the huge majority of the younger players are anyways.

I think the majority of the younger players are more students of math and a majority of the old timers rely on feel, and reading the situations.

But if you watch some of the more successful younger guys, Durr, Mercier, Galfond etc. you will see them defy the math to push someone off a hand.
Making the 'c' bet just because they can stack wise or even firing the 3rd and 4th bullet on a stone cold bluff.

As someone who by age is an old timer (60) who has been playing poker for so many years I do find myself going with my gut many times.

Math is a necessity for a successful player but guts, instincts and the ability to read a player sure don't hurt.

indeed using the math and using the math against an opponent are essential skills ...unless you want a short poker career. have to agree leo if you are just going to be a multi table grinder working the percentages and such by all means but once you sit down in a live situation or in a game with me online if you are just a calculator i'll push yer buttons

I've noticed many sentences from pros regarding math. Many of them rely heavily on math to improve their game off the table. Most of the knowledge of 'making good decisions' in books is about math actually. But applying that knowledge on the table is much more about playing the player.

So yes I'm pretty sure they use math and make it the foundation of their game but using math alone would be playing the cards, not the player. That will be the most important thing.

I think the case more often is that while the older school of live pros do the same math they use slightly different terms when talking about it.

Not at a exactly % but round or close to % odds yeah, I use them all the time. That plus a good read on your opponents and a bit of luck ( or not bad luck ) in they key moments are a good recipe to victory.

i think anyone playing poker seriously can roughly calculate their outs and pot odds

they may not be obnoxious about it like Phil Laak, who is always spouting pct.

and they may not be calculating it down to the exact pct., but they have an idea of whether or not putting their chips in the pot is a good bet or bad bet .... it really comes down to how well they are at putting people on hands and that's more art and experience than math

most math other than some ICM spots is simple. after you've played a few hundred thousand hands it becomes second nature.

the complicated part comes in analyzing ranges after you have a good sample size on someone and you have a good feel for their tendencies.

So we are always being told that we should be using PokerStove, but how are you guys actually doing that in practise?

Are you using it at the table, or when you are analysing your play after the event?

Or maybe you don't use it at all...

The pros use math, but unlike a lot of online grinders they don't necessarily fold according to any mathematical formula. They know the player and use their reading skills to play or fold. It is a distinct talent. They know they don't need the best hand to win if they can make the opponenet fold. I think they could be considered well informed gamblers. I would not have the balls to call any of them donks, because that is not an operative word at that level of play.

most pros go off feel but the sharks (e.ivey) use both

I think they will do some calculations, but I think you will find the majoirty of times they make plays based on instinct, as their reads are far superior to other players, even if the odds are "inncorrect" to call, they know it's profitable to call based on their reads and knowing what they intend to do in the next hand.

A perfect example is high stakes poker, I don't think they very often use odds or math to play hands, calling 3/4 bets out of position etc with garbage hands, knowing they can win a pot regardless.

I think maths comes more in to play and they use it more when in tournaments for example as opposed to cash games.

I think Ivey is the perfect example of one who rarely ever uses odds based on a call or not. He uses more feel and can put someone on a hand 9times out of 10.

I think he's the only player who can call a 4 bet out of position with 2,5 and get someone to fold their pocket Aces.

In fact, I think Ivey can get someone to put down Aces preflop by actually making the other person think he's holding two pairs of aces, haha he's that good.

I would think most do,,,math may be of more use online when you can't get many reads against players,,,just my thoughts....

Using the math "skill" can be used as an advantage.
This is not necessary as you can always "replace" it with poker experience or feeling.

I've used Pokerstove alot in the past (not as much lately but only due to having used it alot previously). No, I don't use it while on the tables (just not practical). I use it when reviewing hands/situations, putting villain's on a range, calculating equity & spots to see if they are +cEV.
If you want, I could put in a couple examples takin' from HH's in Tournaments to show you how I use it.
How often have I used it? For literally hundreds upon hundreds of hands.

Exactly the same has PO, but for cash and I still use it quite often. It's a fine piece of software for review and study.

^^This - I use it exactly the same way (give or take - a lot of situations I have run ínto so often that I know the equity).

I wish I could motivate myself to use pokerstove like that for sessions afterwards.

All this equity and chip $ equity etc etc all just baffles me. I have used it before same with SnG WiZ and whilst I'm sure they do work, for me personally i prefer not too.

I basically go for odds in multi-way pots and "feel" headsup in a pot or in general against someone. I think this is more of a deciding factor than using poker stove to determine if a shove is correct or not. I know poker stove might say "fold your A,9" against his shoving range, but if I feel A,9 is beating him at this point, I'd call even if $ equity says fold at this point for example in a SnG STT, I for one don't "believe" it's correct to play like that, but that's personally my opinion. I couldn't ever, or ever see any people where we're talking "pros" thinking of tournament equity and so forth. If they think they're ahead, they will call, regardless. If they think they can bust or play someone, rather than the cards, I'm sure they do this than think in pokerstove terms.

I think it all confuses me to much and far to much to take in at times besides which, someones actual range might completly differ, if they change their game play at various points in a tournament, ie: limp/shove/call raise with Aces, shove 7,2 of suit and so forth, you would never ever get a real range of what this play is doing.

ram, don't mean this to sound harsh but thinking such is yours is the reason why low BI SNGs remain profitable. SNGs are totally solved, the only gray area is coming up with realistic villain ranges and even then it is a matter of degrees; there are just clear spots where you A. shove ATC or B. fold pretty much ATC except KK+. but pretty much any SNG spot is totally standard.

I don't profess to be a great SNG player myself, but for reasons that are mostly similar to yours: I've not fully dedicated myself to committing all the math of shoving/calling ranges to memory, but I acknowledge that.

I totally agree with you, I don't process to believe I'm actually any good, especially in STT's. Just for me personally, I like the whole poker aspect of trying to out play and out think of what your player may or may not be holding. Not sat there thinking "should I fold my Jacks here as it's negative EV long term"

I'm not sure on the SnG's being solved caper that goes around, for one in the medium/high buy-ins the vast majority are reg filled, yet they still compete agaisn't each other and I'm sure the majority have a huge understand of the shove/fold/ICM of STT's.

I just much prefere playing poker as in how it's supposed to be None of this equity lark and even being in front, you should be folding. I don't belive in that, but that's me personally and most likely why I suck, but for the buy-ins I play, I don't mind really.

When I need to compute 4+11, I don't need to actually do the math, I can answer 15 'instinctively". What really happens is that my brain has enough repeated experience of this kind of things to provide the correct answer without requiring conscient thought. But it's still math.

Same for poker pros playing poker, obviously.

There are shortcuts for almost everything in poker. So it's easy to make it second nature. I believe it's more difficult to properly define outs than getting the rest of the math from there.

Yes please

SnG grinders are doing exactly that: grinding. Their edge in SNGs vs. good players is ridiculously thin and such players rely on volume/rakeback to make money. Honestly there is very little action in true high BI SNGs, most players with the roll to play that high have found out that MTTs or cash are much much much more profitable.

Putting players on ranges gets easier over time.

Playin' a bunch of tourneys this morning/aft. but I'll try to post a couple of examples later on.(of how I'm typically using it for tournament situations)

Do the pros use math in their game?
Does a bear shyt in the woods?

I'd be interested to see these examples too, buddy

Steve

Been real busy & will be for next couple of days. Will try to post a few soon.

LMAO

Nice !!!!

Math should be the base foundation of all poker decisions.

^this

so actually they are not doing a lot of math, more recalling answers.

Like darts players won't multiply 3x17, they know treble seventeen is 51.
they also know most combinations of three darts, like treble 19+15+double top is 'idk whatever' you can do the math, because they know all the combinations needed to make a finish from experience.

Bar workers also use less math because they know the price of common groups of drinks. 1 beer, 2 beers, 3 beers; 2 beers + 2 cokes etc.

So it should be with experienced poker players that they know the answer at a glance without doing any math.

They also know everyones chip count unless you mess with them by stacking your chips in irregular piles :-)

I know three people who have been playing -or- played professionally for 25+ years. ('Professionally' defined as their primary source of income). All three of them told me that math is a tool in their decision making, but not too put too much emphasis on it. Poker is a game of people not numbers. Being an engineer I wanted to prove to them that you can be a successful player by playing Poker by the numbers. Well, after one year, I proved them right and I was wrong. You might squeak by and become marginally successful, but if getting rich is your goal, playing strictly by the percentages won't get you there.