Deck shuffling, how 'random' is it?

When dealers shuffle by spreading cards out on table and mixing like a salad, or doing a standard shuffle, how random is that? Do cards often tend to clump and remain unchanged? Maybe for example, batches of 3 or 4 cards will remain in the exact same order as the previous hand. Or they just make human error in not shuffling thoroughly enough.

Which brings about the use of 'RNG' generators. Can it be said that, it's possible, if a software based RNG is "too random", it's actually NOT a true representation of a real shuffled deck?

That is, in real life, the real shuffle actually is "less random" because some cards can clump and stick together?

So it would go against the normal thought that a software RNG should never have any repeated, pattern based results? (So in other words, for RNG's to mimic a real shuffle, it SHOULD contain minute amounts of repeated results.. to simulate batches of cards clumped together)

(I am not implying this in any regard to the 'rigged' topics. This is more for analysis I'm using-- part of an experiment I'm doing to shuffle a deck in software that closely matches how it is actually shuffled in real life--with human flaws and all..)

If the dealer is doing their job properly then no, you shouldn't get clumps of cards sticking together hand after hand. Even if it were the case that some manual shuffles were imperfect though, I don't understand why you'd want to reproduce that?

A randomly ordered deck is what we want for every hand. If that's what an online site's random number generator gives us, then why would we want to make it worse just because some human dealers can't live up to the same standard? It's OK for the online version to be better.

For me this falls in the same category as people getting bent out of shape when sites use a continuous shuffle system during a hand, or getting excited by sites that let players cut the deck or that include burn cards in their shuffle system for no appreciable reason.

if players received 2 cards at a time you might have a point ...but poker games are dealt out 1 at a time which randomizes cards even more.

a game like euchre where cards are dealt 2 or 3 at a time would be more susceptable to incomplete shuffling

Yeah that's a good point. But what about, let's say last hand had an AK together (maybe they were the last cards mucked), then next hand you're dealt that same A (same suit). Now you can assume, that means the guy next to you might have the K.

If those two cards stuck together, they're right next to each other. Now the flop comes K 7 8, guy next to you raises.. you may fold.

If it were a RNG, now you can't assume he holds the K, and still feel your A holds out.

Where are you playin live that deals sticky cards?

If a dealer is doing his job properly then it about random as you can get.

Manual shuffling is more random than computer shuffling, because computers cannot generate truly random number sequences. Some poker bots work by brute forcing the code that the site uses to generate cards, and then using that to accurately predict peoples hands.

How do you know it was those two specific cards that "stuck together" though? Such an assumption would be both stupid and dangerous IMO.

And I'm still forced to wonder about my original point: even if it were the case that RNGs provided a better-randomised result (if the dealer is halfway competent it shouldn't be an issue, but whatever), why would you want to go to spend the time and money dragging the RNG back down to the level of an incompetent live dealer?

inb4

riggedmegathread

I guess it's a moot point because you just gotta play the cards you are dealt. I don't think you can assume anything about the randomness, random or not.

Yeah it not like the dealer is a card mechanic that can pick who has the best or worst hands.

Pokerstars is pretty much as random as it can get, a true random generator, because it uses user mouse movements to generate what deck sequence it will use.

Some top pros can spot patterns in the way the cards fall after watching a dealer for an hour or so It's called "shuffle tracking".
That's one reason the dealers in casinos rotate about every half hour .

Silly me i was under the assumption the dealers rotated because of tips at the different tables.

I seem to recall reading that the standard 2 riffle, 4 cut, 1 riffle is just about as effective as a 5+ riffe.

Do you have links for anyone who says they can do this? I'm not saying it's impossible, but if the dealer is halfway competent it should be very, very difficult at best. Unless the cards are marked in some way, but that's a different issue.

IMO people should be a lot more worried about collusion and card marking (and card mechanics, if it's a self-dealt game) than they should be about shuffle tracking or just how random the shuffle is when they're playing live, especially in a casino.

So did you buy Poker RNG 6.0? I'm guessing you're up gazillions then.... no?

shuffle tracking is for multideck blackjack

There is no such thing as truly random number. Each random generator requires a lot of computer power. No poker site can affords each random generator for each table, So I guess random generators are shared among tables. It may not be "truly random", if you define "truly random" as each random generator for each table, BUT THERE IS NO WAY ANY ONE OR ANY PROGRAM CAN PREDICT OTHER PLAYERS HANDS.

Yeah there are.
The decimals of Pi for instance appear truly random.
If u have a bunch of uranium atoms they will split in a truly random order.

And to OP, you are on to something.
The live shuffle is not as random as the online shuffle.
But you would have to be Rainman to be able to take advantage of it.

Counting cards in Black Jack has nothing to do with the shuffle, but mearly uses the dependency between the cards dealt and the card to come.