Could you fold a set?

Well i didnt get the hand history for this because it is deleted on poker.com as soon as you log out. But this is what happened.

I was in the poker.com saturday $2000 freroll doing quite well, i had about double the average stack (about 8K), blinds were 100/200.

I get dealt 99, a 12K stack raises to 800, everyone folds and i call hoping to hit a 9.
Flop comes 9A8 rainbow!
He immeadietly pushes allin!
At this point i really really think he has AA, i felt that i had to call so i did, he did have AA and i was out of the tourney.

Could i possibly fold here, I was seriously about 75% sure he had AA?

His push with AA is really unorthodox to say the least.

If you call with 99 there you are ahead 95% of the time, don't sweat it.

I mean you could fold, but you won't.

No one could fold in this position some people would want to fold, but I doubt you could lay down the 2nd nuts.

That would be pretty hard to fold. With his push it seems like he is trying to push you off the hand, and you have the second best possible hand. The only problem I see is if you really did think he was playing like he had AA. You have to trust your instincts sometimes. If you can put a player on a hand, it is important to play like that is really the hand they have, otherwise you won't trust yourself, and you won't be able to control the game very well.

No way I fold this. Never! Why so sure he had AA? Please don't say you just had a feeling. Unless you've played 100's of hands with somebody and never seen them raise with anything but AA or KK you've got to consider a broader range of possible hands. 88, AK-AJ are possible even if he's a total rock. There is not a single good player on this site that could have gotten away from this. Maybe some bad ones though.

You could but, what Rex said. You have a great chance to double up here & if winning is what you are about you are gonna play this.

I was this sure he has AA because he was a total rock. Yes i know he could of also had AK, AQ, AJ, A10.
I just didnt think he would push like that unless he had AA.
Im not saying i was entirely sure, but i was pretty sure he had it.
Maybe i was totally wrong to even think about folding but, I was seriously considering folding and just continuing with the tournament since i still would of been in good shape!!

He's an idiot for pushing w AA there. I mean why would anyone push there with the nuts on a relatively draw free board? Terrible play by him to non maximize his hand in the long run.

What he said, it's just his lucky day you hit a set.

I need to start lol....I called an All-In earlier on Wingows, I had a set of A's, well neddles to say the other guy caught a straight.....

I think it was in HoH 1 where Harrington said, basically, in a set over set situation you should lose a lot of money. Too paraphrase, only an idiot would lay down a set because he believed someone had a higher one.

Once you hit that 9, you should think you're getting paid off by anyone playing Ax. If you lay it down there, or know anybody that would, by all means head my way... I'll play with ya anytime.

I don't know about just giving up and accepting that this hand can't be folded. If the grest players can fold K/K when they feel they are beat, if they can fold A/A under the right circumstances, then really calling this hand isn't all that automatic.

I'm not saying I could fold this hand in your situation, I've had sets beaten by over sets many times where I wish I had. Most of the time you don't see it comming, but if you have a 75% read on this guy and you put him on A/A for an overset Well could a great player make that laydown?

I don't see the whole hand history here but from what you've posted your only invested 800 and have 11200 left with the blinds only 100/200 survival is most important. You got to see the flop, you hit a set but this guy goes all-in in front of you with you suspecting that he raised with A/A.

Could a pro, could a great player fold that? I think the answer is yes.

Could I do it, I hope someday that I can get that good a read and lay it down if I think I'm beat. It's early in the tourney I'm ahead twice the average stack and I can pick a spot where I'm the aggressor. Survival is key to winning and awexome laydowns is part of that.

It's a freeroll though, some people play pretty wildly and it's still early it would be pretty damned impossible for me not to call, but I think under those circumstances in a WSOP or WPT tournament a great player might be able to fold it.

Tough beat ... good game!

if the flop was AKQ with 3 hearts, and you have QQ, maybe. as is, no.

If you fold 99 here, you should not be playing no limit hold 'em.

Thanks for all your replies, its interesting to see that none of you would have folded here.
Well i probs wouldnt either and thats why i didnt.
But i was thinking about what MrDaMan said. I really did want to cash in this tourney, it was $400 for 1st and there were only 609 entrants.
If this was a cash game then i would never fold, but it was a tourney and tourney are about how long you last.

Here is a video of David Williams folding a set, i know its not the exact same situation but its close.

David Williams' Nightmare Flop

I didnt fold my set either when i had the 10s and was 2nd out in a tourney just last week

On the BB dealt TT, SB called my raise,
Flop A,10,9 - i raise - he reraises
I reraise him back - he pushes all-in

I think surely he hasnt AA - what are the chances?? possibly A-10, AK etc

I call

My set of 10s v his set of As - im gone

It hurt, but stored it away and on with the next game

From the books, hand history's and interviews I've seen the key to laying down a hand like this is knowing your opponent. LAG=call TAG=call ROCK=fold

Thee's not much information in the David Williams video on his opponents but he has a read that he knows is right. Either a strong tell or the guy who went all-in plays like a rock. It could be totally uncharacteristic for that guy to go all-in unless he has the nutz, it's just something he wouldn't do unless he had the K/Q, he's not a bluffing kind of guy, a rock someone who patiently waits until he has the nutz and suprises no one when he goes all-in..

Like I said earlier, you're early in a tourney, you have double the average stack, your focused, your confident in your game, it's uncanny how well your reading the other players on this particular night/tourney. You call a 4x blind raise and are heads up, you flop a set of 9's with an A in the flop. You put your opponent on A/A and he goes all-in in front of you.

The call isn't automatic, who is your opponent? What has he played like? how big is his stack? Is he a rock, a bluffer, TAG, LAG or weak passive? If he's TAG, LAG or a bluffer perhaps you call, if he's a rock or weak passive and uncharacteristicly raises 4X the blind when he usually just limps or minimum raises he has A/A and you are dominated.

Definately want to call the maniac bluffer, because your stack is covered the TAG or LAG player might have A/A you're not sure , the rock or weak/passive player has it you know it.

Maniac bluffer call 90%, TAG or LAG call 75%, rock/weak passive call 25%.which leaves a fold 10%, 25% and 75% respectively.

And that comes back around to the fact that you're in a tournament, when your out your out, survival is a key to winning. Are you playing the cards or are you playing the people?

You're ahead of the tournament, double average stack, your focused, your confident in your game, it's uncanny how well your reading the other players on this particular night/tourney. Why risk it? Fold and look for other opportunity's you have to be in the tournament to win.

I think most people make this call, heck I make this call almost automaticly but there are reasons the pro's are as consistant at winning like they are. They are good ... no great at playing PEOPLE not just the cards. I'm not a pro, I'm just another amateur thinking and trying to improve my game and I think a pro in a WSOP or WPT torunament could and probably does lay this hand down.

Great post 4Aces this is definately a situation to help clarify and define how to play poker generally if not just specificly this hand.

Could I have laid this hand down? No! Can I lay this hand down in the future under the right reads and circumstances? After this post yeah maybe I can, maybe I will, I've won many a tournament not so much based on what I played but what I didn't play. Circumstances, people and cards vary, in or out is a huge consideration.

^^^Good Post^^^

in the situation you described, i wouldn't even consider folding. in the situatin in the david williams video i would. the way the action goes gives him no choice. the guy with the straight makes it pretty obvious he was trapping with a huge hand. The only thing you can beat there is a bluff (maybe 2 pair) and with blinds still pretty low it's not worth it to bet your tournament life hoping both guys are bluffing.

You can`t fold this, IMO. As has been covered, he probably has one Ace, but to put him on 2 aces - not me!!!

The point someone made about putting down KK. It depents on the situation. In a MTT, on the bubble, u have paid $5k to buy in and if u out last one more person u pick up $20k u possibly fold. However, in the same situation mid way through the tourny, u must call - again IMO. However, this might be why I don`t play in the WSOP !!!

It is really hard for me to fold a flopped set in a Free Roll. And with him moving all in on the flop I would have to put him on AK. Even if I thought he may have had AA to begin with. 99% of poker players would have called there. Unless it was two old pros that have been playing together for about 30 years. Like Doyle and Chip Reese - did anyone see the hand where Doyle had QQ to Chip's KK? And Doyle folded on the flop after he made a good bet on a low safe flop for QQ - Chip made the min raise to Doyle's bet - then Doyle pretty much did a insta fold - he knew exactly what Chip had. But, even in that spot - if Doyle flopped a Q and Chip flopped a K - I don't know if Doyle could have folded. If anyone could or would have folded there it will be one of these guys. And maybe just a handful more. It is amazing the level those guys play on.

GL
KeV.

Excellent response. The Williams situation is completely different. In that case he has 10s 10h and board is AJ10 with 2 diamonds. 3 way action with Williams 2nd to act.

1st guy: raise (Ks Qd)
Williams: call
3rd guy: re-raise (Q9 -- no diamond)
1st guy: all in

Now look at that action. You know your bottom set is no good. At the least in Williams shoes, you have to give the guy credit for a larger set or the nuts with a draw to the flush. Tough, but logical fold. Furthermore, keep in mind this was the first hand from a cash game.

YOU MUST WATCH THIS VIDEO IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!!!

The expression on Williams face is hilarious with about 1:10-1:00 left in the video. His response to all the action is an incredulous "Look at this cooler!". LMAO. Then at the end "I never fold a pair and I just laid down a set."

You are never really safe unless you have the nuts and you are drawing to the nuts, so one could consider folding this.

I would love to think I could fold it, but know I wouldn't.

Where can I see the Williams video?

Click on the hyperlink in 4aces07's post above

As soon as you fold, and he mucks his hand, I think you'd begin thinking how foolish you were to fold, whether foolish or not

A good player will just move on to the next hand rather than thinking about whether he was foolish or not.

I think it's definitely possible to fold. Especially if you felt he had AA for some reason. It's amazing what you can pick up on a player even when you're not fully focussed and if you felt it then there was likely a reason for it.

Me, I probably would have called. However, it's hard to say. I folded a Q over A full house not too long ago for seemingly no reason. The guy was baffled and asked why I folded. I just had a feeling he had the A over Q FH and he showed it to me. Sometimes you have to trust your gut.

Dude, with a single player in the pot like this you CANNOT put him on aces. If you fold this, I repeat, you should NOT be playing NLHE.

If 3 other butt-cheek-clenched-oh-so-tight-they-could convert-coal-to-diamonds players are in and you have a re-re-raise in front of you, then I fold. But in this situation, no way, never, shame on you for folding.

if i could fold a full house i can sure fold a set ...couldnt resist

if the board got ugly enough i wouldnt have trouble throwing away a set

I'm gonna have to disagree. Like I said, I'd probably call because you're right, you can't put him on aces without a reason. But if you have a reason to believe that's what he's holding, fold. It's a tourney, better to stay alive then go against your gut and make a call that for some reason doesn't feel right.

Now if your history shows you that your gut is usually wrong..then yeah, just play by the book. If your history is that you are usually right, you have to trust your instincts. For some reason dude felt he had aces. Looking back there was probably a reason for it. Likely betting patterns.

I've only folded a full house once. I've folded lower sets a few times when it becomes apparent that someone else has a higher set. It's poker and picking up on that info is what can keep you out of trouble.

By the book, it was a straight forward call. But poker isn't always by the book.

impossible to fold that i would have gone all in, as I see it he had AK; AQ something like that

Reading other players is crutial in no limit holdem. If you have been reading him correctly up to that point I think the laydown is not only possible but adviseable. However, if you are only 75% sure. Well, that isn't very sure. So, likely call here. if you are 85% or higher than you need to really think. Play over previous hands he has been in before this one. Has he gone all in before with a monster. Or does he get sneak, even rocks can be sneaky, and wait until the turn to throw down the hammer. If he is an all in on the flop kind of player with a monster then you can lay it down.