Could the Feds go after the sponsored pros?

As I read it, the Feds could go after the online pros using the RICO statues...and go after their personal wealth. The foundation for my statement is that the pros, Ivey, Dwan, Negreanu, etc. personally benefited from the activities of the sites that sponsor them. If PS and FT are successfully prosecuted, that establishes that the sites violated the law. And, part of the profits from that illegal activity was paid to the sponsored pros. Thus, although the pros did not violated the law themselves, they profited from the illegal activities of others. Therefore, their "ill gotten gain" is subject to forfeiture. And, if the Feds can show that the pros should have known that they were working for a company who was violating the law, then there could also be additional fines and penalties the pros have to pay.

In this Martial Law country....sure....

I hope not

As far as the RICO law states, their funds can be seized, but I doubt the Feds are going to take it that far. They would have a poker uprizing on their hands. As poker players, we will only stand for so much abuse, and I don't believe anyone would stand for that.

turtelliusshellis: In addition, if the Feds indict the pros, one or more might decide to take their case to trail, which is the last thing the Feds want. If a case went to trial, it would not only be costly, but poker could be ruled to be a game of skill, not luck, and therefore not be subject to regulation under the gambling laws. That would also dry up their source of funds...their current extortion racket of indicting and then threatening until the accused cough up huge amounts of cash to settle the case.

So, so glad I didn't throw away my tin foil lined hat.

turtelliusshellius said:

As far as the RICO law states, their funds can be seized, but I doubt the Feds are going to take it that far. They would have a poker uprizing on their hands. As poker players, we will only stand for so much abuse, and I don't believe anyone would stand for that.

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They (the Feds./government) pass the UEGIA bill. No uprising, They deem online poker illegal in the US, temporarily shutting down some sites. No uprising. They confiscate funds and shut down payment processors that work with some sites. No Uprising. They finally put their foot down and seize/close/charge PS. FTP and UB with a slew of major federal crimes. No uprising.

And you think that charging Ivey is taking it too far?? The time for a "poker uprising" is now folks.

You're right, the time is now. There is a thread about this. It's time every poker player writes their congress men and women and senators and voice our opinion and displeasure on this matter. Threaten them with your votes!!! If millions of American poker players do that, we may finally see a change. What I really have a problem with is I believe congress is already considering a bill that would legalize it, so the government went after these guys now so they could rake in millions in fines now, then make billions later when it's legal. It's no wonder most other countries don't trust us. Our politicians talk out of both sides of their mouths as the saying goes.

Negreanu is Canadian, the US can't do anything to him.
Ivey made his name and money from live play, so I think it impossible for them to truly go after him...
Dwan on the other hand.....

Jarod1231 said:

Negreanu is Canadian, the US can't do anything to him.
Ivey made his name and money from live play, so I think it impossible for them to truly go after him...
Dwan on the other hand.....

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It makes absolutely no difference if Negreanu is Canadian or Martian. If he was a resident of the US and was sponsored by an online site, he's vulnerable. Ivey may have made most of his cash by live play. But, that wouldn't stop the DOJ from going after any portion that was made online or are the proceeds from being sponsored by an illegal online site.

I am not an expert in law by any stretch of the imagination but it does seem a touch unfair to go after the pros. Imagine if the place you work at came under criminal investigation, could they really fine all employees there who knew nothing of the shady underpinnings?

I doubt it.

<Could the Feds go after the sponsored pros?>

Why should I care about this unless the pros hide their money under my mattresses lol.

pokerchris said:

<Could the Feds go after the sponsored pros?>

Why should I care about this unless the pros hide their money under my mattresses lol.

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than why post ITT if you dont care...lol

i dont think that they can do that for what reason

they may be brought for questioning to ask them if they know about this charges but they r only tv stars what they could they know about this thing not like they run the casino

essambb said:

they may be brought for questioning to ask them if they know about this charges but they r only tv stars what they could they know about this thing not like they run the casino

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This maybe more true for pokerstars pros, but it would seem to me that the Full Tilt pros are more vulnerable, as they have some ownership status with Full Tilt...although i am not privy to the details and legalities of their ownership role.

Ranger390 said:

turtelliusshellis: In addition, if the Feds indict the pros, one or more might decide to take their case to trail, which is the last thing the Feds want. If a case went to trial, it would not only be costly, but poker could be ruled to be a game of skill, not luck, and therefore not be subject to regulation under the gambling laws. That would also dry up their source of funds...their current extortion racket of indicting and then threatening until the accused cough up huge amounts of cash to settle the case.

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Most of the charges against the sites have "nothing" to do with whether poker is a game of skill or luck.

Most of the charges are related to bank fraud and wire fraud, which doesn't focus at all on the game, but how the poker companies and payment processors did business with banks.

It's unlikely to go to trial, because the southern district of NY is very well known for not putting forward a case unless they have you dead to rights, but if they did go to trial, the "poker is a game of skill" argument is not a defence for chages like bank and wire fraud, simply because the argument is totally unrelated to those particular charges.

i hope not ,

turtelliusshellius said:

As poker players, we will only stand for so much abuse, and I don't believe anyone would stand for that.

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I wouldnt lose sleep over it

Ranger390 said:

As I read it, the Feds could go after the online pros using the RICO statues...and go after their personal wealth. The foundation for my statement is that the pros, Ivey, Dwan, Negreanu, etc. personally benefited from the activities of the sites that sponsor them.

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I think your right except for Negreanu is Canadian so the US Fed's can't really touch him if he is registered as a Canadian player

The rico laws are so loose that the law could be applied to anyone who used the banking system to move money to or from an online site. Good luck all.

I suppose the pros could be vulnerable. If PokerStars, Full Tilt and Absolute were breaking the law and the professionals encouraged people to sign up to these sites, they could be held liable for endorsing an illegal operation - duping the public.

They couldn't really argue they didn't know these companies were dodgy. It's up to them to check out the integrity of the sites before accepting millions in sponsorship money.

There were rumors during the 2010 wsop that Howard Lederer and Chris Ferguson were about to be indicted. That of course never happened. So maybe they were initially looked at as apart of this DOJ investigation and ultimately dropped because there wasn't enough evidence against them or perhaps there is still an ongoing investigation.

It's interesting to note that there was a short clip during the Poker Edge on ESPN from Phil Gordon saying that he couldn't comment regarding the indictments and seemed to allude that he wouldn't be back on the show for awhile. Tiltware LLC was mentioned in the indictments and I believe that Gordon and Ferguson were originally involved with Tiltware from a software perspective when FT first started.

Alot of the top pros have not made comments since the indictments which is interesting. I believe someone said that Stars and Tilt told them not to. It would not surprise me if some of them are called to testify in the case.

No not the pros! if they go down there is no hope for the rest of us.... I think they need to speak up and do something to save online poker. considering it was a big part of poker for them and us.

It is what they will do and not what they can do. But I think you are correct that it could be done. Too bad Obama couldn't be talked into playing online poker.