Conquering My Bankroll Problems + Progress

Well, after seeing people post BR threads with balances on both ends of the spectrum (small & large), I thought I'd start my own with what I believe to be an average bankroll ($252.03 & I'm down quite a bit. I'll say how much I personally put into my BR when I get back to even.). I also want to focus it more on problem-solving than on actual progression of the amount. (This might be better suited for a personal blog, but my need for opinions fits right here for now.)

Problem #1: Small gains, larger losses. Most of the time, I'll have a few days where I am +$11 or +$20 and then I'll have a day of -$35 or -$50. I'm not sure why. I bounce back and forth between SnG's & cash games. Is that why? I bounce between $5 and $10 SnG's. Is that why? I bounce between Limit, NL, & PL Hold 'Em quite a lot. Is that why? I'm working on bonuses right now, so the ring game stakes I play are $1/$2 & .50/$1 Limit, .10/.25 NL, & .10/.25 PL (all of these I sit down with $15-$25). Are these stakes too high for my BR? I have my $250 BR spread out between 3 sites. Is that why?

Opinions welcome.

Problem #2: Sometimes, I don't know when to stop & take a break. In cash games when I lose half my stack, sometimes I get anxious to make it back up and play too loose resulting in losing more or even all my stack. Is this tilt? How do I know when I should leave the table or when I should stick around? This even happens with SnG's. If I bust out of one early, sometimes I quickly jump into another one to make up for the first loss. How do I know if & when this is a bad idea?

Again, opinions welcome.

End of 5/12/06 = $252.03
Gain or Loss = -$20.18
(-$25 from the CC Pokerstars event, then made a little back on Poker.com)

OK. first, what limits are you losing the most at? I might recommend stepping down from the $1/$2 (unless you're doing really well there), and probably the .50/$1 as well.

.10/.25 NL/PL is about where you should be. I'd recommend only taking $10-$15 to a table at time. (around 5% of your BR).

I lost almost 1/2 of my BR playing too high limits. I adopted the 5% strategy and now am up $5 overall ($45 initial, to $50 current).

As far as the SnG's go I think you are playing the right limits. I think you have the same problem I do though and that is bouncing around from game to game. I do my best when I make a plan and stick with it instead of bouncing. Usually if I'm bouncing it because I'm on tilt. Lose a couple of bucks at a ring game so I go to a $5 SnG, Lose that so I go to a $10 SnG, lose that go to a $10 MTT. Next thing you know I'm way down. So, if I'm getting bored with the tables and want to play a $10 SnG, which is currently too much for my bank roll, I make a plan that I only will play it when I make the buy in above my current BR. Sometimes this is easier said than done but it is what I "try" to do.

Problem #1
This is what i see. You play to many different games. What are you good at? This is what i see every day at the tables. (I have been playing semi pro for a few months mostly live games) All the new players want to try all the games out they play pot limit and lose. So they play nolimt and lose. Then limit and make a few bucks. Next a 10 man sit and go, also in this time they have played dealers choice so the mix it up trying all the games. My point is find something you like and stick with it dont move around. Get good at something very good!!!! That my friend is the key.
I played for 2 years and did ok, by that i mean I didnt lose much. Then it hit me I was not very good at any game because i did not sit and learn it I moved around. I love limit games and I must say if you have a to start someplace this is the one. Get your bankroll on one site. You said $200 or so for all 3 cash in and bring it to your site you like the most. Start out at $1/2 limit. Next pick one game Holdem , omaha what ever you play best. The key to this is pot odds most people hate limit because suck outs well it happens. Play your odds and you will do fine. After you get to the point that you double up or more on 5 out of 7 sessions then try a new game. Or limit. I make about $400 to $600 a week on $1-$5 holdem and omaha h/l I play 4-5 days a week from 9pm to 4 or 5 am. With your bank roll you should be making depending on how much you play but lets say 20 hours a week at $1/2 $200 or more a week with some hard work.

Problem #2
My first thought on your first statement is if you have that problem. Which I have myself. Here is what I do set a goal like double up and, a time frame you are willing to play say 4 hours. Now if you double up before the time is up STOP PLAYING. Go and let the dog out or do something for a min or two. If you made this goal by just a great run of cards I would play a little more. But if it was hard to get there stop and dont play at least for a hour or so. This way you will stay up not just lose it. For the TIME FRAME once you reach your set time to stop STOP. This is beer time for a job well done. As for when you said you lose half and you get anxious this could be tilt. If I lose half my buy in I will quit or change my seat. Keep in mind my buy in is 50 bb or more.

For you sit and goes if you lose and want to play again dont do it right away. Take a smoke brake or even run around the house for a min. This will clear your mind and you will not make dumb calls because of the last game. Also if you see that you are going down hill quit. Some people lose so much money this way because there is a point of no pain. And what I mean by this is once someone has lost alot sometimes they just dont care anymore and dont realize that they are just throwing it all away they mind just goes numb.

I hope this helps you out. If you only play online I think you should read killer poker online by john Vorhaus. His book deals alot with the stuff that is killing your game.

one other thing do you keep book If not you should

Oh yes. I use PokerTracker and I have an Excel ledger for running BR balance. Both help a lot.

I think I will take your advice and stick to one game type for a while. At least for one whole day at a time. Also, I think I will move all or most of my money to one site.

The problem now is picking which game & which site. I'll figure it out.

End of 5/13/06 = $255.32
Gain or Loss = +$3.29

Made $3 on FTP .10/.20 PLHE. Lost $12 on 2 Party $6 SNGs. Made $12 on Poker.com SNG & NLHE Ring. I actually got in a $2 Omaha SNG by mistake on Poker.com and won the thing. Might have to try Omaha a bit more regularly now.

I kinda agree with sticking to one game.
I used to play alot of SnGs and hardly any cash games; I would slowly build up the BR with the SnGs and finally get bored with em (income was too gradual) so i would sit at a ring game, and end up losing all my winnings. I used to suck at rings because i was used to the all in MTT type play and that killed me in cash situations.
Don't know if your in the same situation, but either way i think its a good idea to keep your focus on one type of game, that way your mind is completely dedicated to that kind of strategy and playing style.

I have a triple up rule. But if I double up at a tough table, I will usualy get up. I use to do the double up rule before I built a bank roll.

I also only buy in for half of what I want to risk that session. If I lose it and feel the game is easily beatable, I will rebuy. If it is a tough game or I am not playing well, than I get up.

Gosh, I'm having a hard time sticking to one site & one game. I've got cash bonuses working on Full Tilt & Poker.com and I'm collecting points on Party. I'm 800 away from a subscription to Poker Pro magazine. Oh well, maybe one game type is doable on all 3.

End of 5/14/06 = $273.02
Gain or Loss = +$17.70

Lost some on Party rings & SNG. Then found a good .50/$1 Limit HE ring on FTP and doubled up. I think I'll just try more of those for today.

First of all, I would stick to a certain type of game. I have found that my strategy for a SnG is completely different than my strategy for a ring game. If you are switching back and forth between the 2, it takes a period of time to readjuse your mindset for that specific game, and it can cripple your bankroll. Then when you lose money, you rotate back to the other game hoping that your luck will be different. It's kind of a viscious cycle where if you win, you win big. But if you lose, you lose bigger.

Second, what time of day are you playing. I had to track my stats with software to realize that I play better in the evening than in the morning or afternoon. I don't know if it is that my patience is better during those times, or the tables are more suited to my style, but over a long period of time it has shown that my gains are better during the evening.

Find a way to maximize your gains through time of day, limits you play (within your bankroll), and consistency of game.

Another quick piece of advice. If you are sitting at a table for a long period of time and you are showing minimal profit, quit while you are ahead. Eventually, you will lose your gains if you stay at that table.

Also, if you double up on a table, walk away. It is too easy to think top pair is invincible when you have doubled your money, and you will widdle away your br just trying to bet people out of pots.

On low limits, you will rarely bet someone out of a pot, so it's best to play tight, bet on high suited connectors and high pp. If you hit a set, straight or flush, then it's on. Anything other than that typically loses at a lower level.

I don't really understand the double up rule. Why would I want to quit a table full of fish just because I doubled my money. I think if you are at an easy table, stay until it is not easy. Just the opposite when you are at a table of solid players. When you see that it is going to be difficult to win, quit and find a better table whether you are up or not. Of course the exception would be the Forum sponsored events which are always solid.

my double up rule is just a guideline. If im running good I will stay at a table like you said alon Ipser. But keep in mind most players after a shift in chips in there direction will tend to play loose and ultimately bust out or lose there winnings. Then in the case of just breaking even will try to hard to play right and spend a few hours nickel and dimeing themselfs do death trying to reclaim there chips. There are many cases thought l would have to agree with ALON IPSPER there are many times the table will just give you money if you just stay. I would have to say in a live game this would be 1 out of 3 or so for me where the money just keeps coming for hours. Just last week I bought a rack in a live $1-$5 game and in 3 hours I have over half of the chips on the table. The fish just keeped giving me pots. At the end of the session I had about $580 in chips. So if the waters fine stay but dont lose all your profits. That is the reason why we play.

You're playing limits a wee bit high for your bankroll at the moment. $600 for playing $1/$2 limit full ring tables is more like it. I would keep to the $.50/$1 tables for now (which you're technically a bit short for as well, but they should be easy enough to beat just by playing tight).

The fact that you're "winning small but losing big" may well be just variance and can in that case be disregarded completely. However, another thing that you may want to be on the lookout for is this:

If you win small, it's possible that you're not aggressive enough on the hands that you win. If you lose big, watch out who you're losing your money to - it's possible that you're up against aggressive players who know how to charge you when they're ahead.

Playing at the limits you do, it's unlikely that you'll find many sharks at the table, but you can practise already at spotting the fish at the table and attacking them. If you use PokerTracker, you should have a rough idea of who's loose and who seems decently tight just by looking at their VP$IP-number.

How often do you fold the turn? How about the river? As a (hopelessly overgeneralized) rule of thumb, the river is not a good place to fold in limit poker, unless you were drawing and missed. A common thing to ask yourself when you call a big bet on the turn is "am I prepared to pay two bets to see a showdown?" since that's how much it will cost you. If you're not willing to showdown what you have on the turn, ask yourself if you will improve often enough on the river that the pot odds are good enough.

Conversely, and this is all related, you may be winning small pots and losing big ones (this may seem obvious looking at your problem, but they aren't necessarily equivalent). Ask yourself if you're protecting your hands properly in big pots, and ask yourself if you're investing too much in small pots. If the pot is heads-up and unraised, I'm generally not very interested in investing more money on the pot and turn, it's simply not big enough.

Finally, post some hands in the hand analysis forum to get an idea of how you fare. Find some common-situation hands, like one where you flop top pair, decent kicker, and let's look at how you play them. Do you call two bets cold preflop often? Do you just call the flop, or do you raise and checkraise a lot?

I hope you don't mind me saying, but I remember playing against you one or two times on FullTilt, and I noticed you were passive when you flopped top pair - you checked, I bet, and you just called on the flop. Since top pair is (almost) never a slowplaying hand, I remember wondering why you didn't checkraise. I can't remember the hand precisely though (and I don't have it saved in PokerTracker since I've changed computers since) but I believe you ended up winning a pretty small pot where you could have charged me at least an extra small bet by raising the flop.

Anyway, situations like that is where checking what the "standard" play is could be useful, if you don't feel comfortable with your winrate. Look for flopped top pair hands where you're up against two or more opponents, and post some of them.


Fredrik

Thanks, FP. I agree with your assessment of my play. It may have to do with what I said I struggle with in the "Result Oriented" thread. Sometimes, I remember a past beat I took with a similar hand I now have and underplay it for caution. I'll think something like "Don't raise your top pair Jacks with King kicker. Remember, when that guy got you with 2 pair J6? Or the time you got slow-played by a set of 4's?" Sometimes, I even play pocket Aces this way. I guess I need to work that out of my head.

I think I found 2 hands we played in my PT that may fit your description, but not perfectly. I'll post them in the Hand Analysis section titled "2 Limit Hands".

Do you believe in the theory that a poker site takes away your lucky cards when you make a withdrawal? I'm trying not to but I sure have been seeing flukes in Party's SNG's since withdrawing last week.

I tried an Omaha ring game again. Did well again. I'm either lucky OR good OR the players suck and I'm mediocre. I'll try not to let this go to my head, but I'm lovin' it.

End of 5/15/06 = $259.89
Gain or Loss = -$13.13

Lost 4 NLHE SnG's on Party. Made some back on Omaha & Limit HE rings.

Not the slightest. There's no incentive for them to do this, is the most powerful argument for why they wouldn't. Look at it this way:

If there's a flag somewhere in their systems that's activated when you withdraw that aims to punish you for being "disloyal," then the only way this will help them retain your money is if you're aware of it being there. In order for a punishment to be effective as a deterrent, it has to be known before-hand. And if it's known by players that they will start to lose more often if they withdraw, you can be pretty sure that no one will ever deposit.

Ergo...

As far as Problem 2 goes - try and catch this week's FSN/Full Tilt's "Lessons from the Poker Pros" (or something close to that) Several of the guys (Ivey, Flack, Jesus) talk about when to play and when to stop. Every single one of them say one of the biggest mistakes you can make is stopping when you're ahead. Qazar recommended putting on the breaks after doubling up (which is probably smart for me, because I tend to get more aggressive when I'm winning), but the pros all agreed that you establish a table image when you're winning and it's crucial to take advantage of that while you can. "If you notice your taking down more and more pots w/o showing, people are scared of you. Take their money."

Ivey's response on when to stop? "When my box is empty and I can't get anyone to loan me money." (He was kidding... I think!)

Really liking PL Omaha now. Started the day losing my stack at one PLO table. Then lost a NLHE SnG. Luck changed at a Limit HE ring table. Then went back and made it all back & then some on a couple other PLO ring tables. Again, I seriously hope this Omaha streak is not a fluke. I hope it's me being good at this and not the players being poor.

End of 5/16/06 = $289.18
Gain or Loss = +$29.29

Uhh, this Omaha thing is getting kinda freaky. Had another stellar day playing it. I did notice that Full Tilt has the tougher PLO games of the sites I play, though. I'm really hoping I have a natural skill rather than just luck.

End of 5/17/06 = $342.58
Gain or Loss = +$53.40

Got some luck on a Limit HE table, then hit a few great PLO tables. Even took a break in the middle to watch my San Jose Sharks get spanked.

Welp, the Omaha streak came to an end. Early in the day, I sat at some PLO tables and couldn't get any decent cards in position. The donks were calling my bluffs with lame stuff and I got impatient. Got down as far as -$40, but then started another streak & got it back to -$8.

End of 5/18/06 = $334.67
Gain or Loss = -$7.91

Lost big at my 1st 4 Omaha tables & a NLHE SnG on Party. Then was able to grind back on some PLO & Limit HE tables on Party & Poker.com.

Omaha is back on the plus side for me. I also noticed that playing Omaha actually helps my Hold 'Em game. Not with similar technique or anything. They ARE quite different games. But I noticed Omaha helps my Hold 'Em patience. When you are looking at 4 hole cards for a while and then you switch to 2, my brain says "Hey wait. Only 2 cards to make a hand now. Better be careful and make 'em count." It seems less frustrating having to continually fold when you get a bad run like 52, 63, 83, 75, 23, 94, 42, 85, etc. Not sure why, but the difference in games helps me.

End of 5/19/06 = $352.98
Gain or Loss = +$18.31

Had to mow the lawn in the morning and go to my daughter's school carnival in the evening, so I played a little in between and had some good Omaha & Limit HE ring sessions.

Fist advice would be to stop bouncing from game to game and especially going up and down in limits, learn to beat one specific limit before you try to move up to the next limit and don't be afraid to drop back down if that limit was more profitable. I love the sitngos but I make my profit grinding it out at Limit ring games. I kept records to see where I was winning and found out that I suck at NL sitngos but do well at Omaha H/L sitngos so when I want to stop grinding it out at the tables and play a sitngo I know what game to play.

Yep, you are right. Since the beginning of this thread, I have figured out that was one of my problems. Now I stick to .50/$1 Limit HE & .10/.25 PL Omaha rings, with the occasional $5 NLHE SnG to break up the monotony & keep up good practice. Seems to be working.

End of 5/20/06 = $362.21
Gain or Loss = +$9.23

Came out near even at a couple PLO tables. Made a little on 2 Limit HE tables & got 2nd in a $5 NL SnG.

Just read an article in Bluff Magazine by Bret Jungblut about bankroll management. He recommends 2 key points I found interesting. First, he says to never sit down with more than 10% of your bankroll at risk. Second, he says that when you win a few pots and you are way over 10% of your BR, you should "squirrel it" or leave & come back with less money so you never risk more than 10%. This second point goes directly against what Phil Gordon says about not "squirreling" in his book "Poker: The Real Deal". Very interesting!

Also, I have been doing well at most of my sites so I decided to re-deposit $50 at Titan to give their Omaha tables a try. I then promptly lost $25 of it to some very, very flukey donkey plays against me in PLO & LHE. Then played a NLHE Heads-Up SnG and my A9 flopped top pair. I raise & get re-raised. I thought the likelyhood of him having another Ace was low or maybe he had a lower kicker plus he was very loose/aggressive & bluffing lots. So I pushed and he called with T6, which were the other 2 flop cards, for 2 pair. Very flukey when it happens more than usual. I think I'll try to get it back up to $50 then withdraw and avoid the rigged theory. Others can agree or disagree with it, but I'll just avoid it.

End of 5/21/06 = $345.87
Gain or Loss = -$16.34

Made up for the Titan loss a little at other sites. Either I'm not good at Titan or Titan's not good to me. Not sure which.

How'd you lose $25 at titan playing with 10% of your BR? You go broke 6 times in a row? (I'm guessing you were playing a bit higher than 10% ) Anyway, yeah Omaha takes some wicked swings.. especially at lower limits online.. most of the people at the table will play ANYTHING. But, like any other game.. you play a tight/aggressive game, and your swings will even out for profit. So, keep it up

Good question. I think of it as 10% of my total bankroll ($350). Even though I only had $50 on Titan, my thought was a sit-down limit of $35 (10% of $350).

Thanks for the encouragement.

Had a little comeback on Titan, mostly in LHE. The Omaha games are actually a bit on the tough side there. I find easier ones elsewhere.

Finally withdrew from Full Tilt in the interest of consolidation. I had already cleared my bonus & earned a hat, so it was time. I'll go back soon since I like it there. So right now I'm on Titan, Poker.com & Party. Next withdrawal will be Titan. I've got some bonuses working there, but they are just too hard to clear at the stakes I play PLUS they will expire in 2 months. I'm 550 points away from a magazine subscription at Party.

End of 5/22/06 = $365.38
Gain or Loss = +$19.51

First losing session on Poker.com. Had winners on Party, Titan, & Full Tilt in PLO & LHE.

LOST PATIENCE: Had a major slip at Party early and had to play catch up all day. Played Omaha and witnessed a few donks calling down with top pair or pocket pairs and winning, raising with pocket pairs, etc. So a few hands in, I get 2 pair and raise. Then I get re-raised with a straight on board and I call down because I don't believe them but I should have. Same thing happened when I hit a straight with a flush on board. I should have believed them. Then with every loss, I got more anxious to come back and dug the hole deeper. I actually think I was too amped up on caffeine. Made me lose my head a little and my BR a lot. I learned from that one. No more major doses of caffeine before a grinding session.

Also, I withdrew from Titan again. Only got back to $41.50 from my original $50. Just got tired of the flukey stuff. I won't use the "R" word, but I think they have a problem with their software. I get the same hand twice in a row numerous times in a session there and I know that the odds of it even happening once are very long. Watched a guy get KK twice in a row while I was getting 74 twice in a row. And don't get me started about the continuous miracle rewards to hands like 92 & T6 hitting 2 pair and cracking top pair or high pockets. Even witnessed it repeatedly during one of my last CC events there and brought it up to everyone. Oh well. I've quit and gone back before, but it just gets harder when it still happens over & over.

End of 5/23/06 = $342.62
Gain or Loss = -$22.76

Got down as much as -$45 early at Party playing Omaha. Came back a little on Titan. Then had another losing day at Poker.com, but cleared a bonus & brought myself halfway back for the day. Lessened the blow.

Found a couple soft LHE tables at Party & started the day off right. Then had my 3rd losing day in a row at Poker.com. Some flukey stuff starting to occur. Is it because I just cleared a bonus? Hmmm... Example: Had 64d in the BB with only one caller & I check. Caller is a short stack & flop comes with 2 diamonds. I bet, he calls. Turn is 9d, making my flush. I bet, he raises another 44c for his all-in & I call. He has 99 for a set, so I'm cool, right? Wrong! No, the river was not a pair to the board for a FH. It was the 4th 9 and I felt so used & abused. Was that my punishment for staying with 64? Or my punishment for clearing a bonus. This wasn't the only incident. Had trip Aces cracked with a 4-on-board straight. "Things that make you go Hmmmmm."

Also, I just found out that you can only withdraw round numbers from Titan. So I have .49 to deal with there. Maybe I'll try the 2c/4c tables.

EDIT: Just found out you must have $1 to play the low-end tables. Sheesh!

End of 5/24/06 = $344.82
Gain or Loss = +$2.20

"Down early. Made a comeback." This is becoming a theme here. I'm not sure if it's me being anxious early in the day or if it is that the games I play are tougher early. Over the last few days, I seem to lose early and comeback late. Sometimes I make it back to the plus side and sometimes I can only come back part way. I'll have to find a solution to this.

End of 5/25/06 = $352.17
Gain or Loss = +$7.35

Stumbled onto a couple tough games at Party. Then got hosed at Poker.com at an Omaha table where my QQQ33 at the turn got rivered by the case 3 for quads. Down almost -$30. Took a break, had a beer, and came back on both sites. Phew!

I think Bret said it better.

This "getting rivered by quads" crap at Poker.com is getting really old! 3 days in a row! And I cleared a part of my bonus today. Really makes you wonder!

---- Dealing Hand #2533814-724 ----
.25/.50 Limit Hold 'Em

>> scouserusa is the Dealer
>> rito23 Posted Small Blind $0.10
>> bustar Posted Big Blind $0.25

>> Dealing Cards
>> MrSticker Dealt (Ac Ad)
>> RenoPoker Calls $0.25
>> KiwiWiz Folds
>> Ansku76 Folds
>> Elchie Folds
>> Dixie66 Folds
>> MrSticker Raised to $0.50
>> potatofromspace Folds
>> scouserusa Folds
>> rito23 Folds
>> bustar Folds
>> RenoPoker Calls $0.25

>> Dealing Flop (Qs,Tc,Qd)
>> RenoPoker Checks
>> MrSticker Bets $0.25
>> RenoPoker Calls $0.25

>> Dealing Turn (Kc)
>> RenoPoker Checks
>> MrSticker Bets $0.50
>> RenoPoker Raised to $1.00
>> MrSticker Raised to $1.50
>> RenoPoker Calls $0.50

>> Dealing River (Qh)
>> RenoPoker Bets $0.50
>> MrSticker Calls $0.50

>> RenoPoker Shows - Ah,Qc
>> MrSticker Mucks
RenoPoker Wins $5.56 from pot 1 with : Four of a Kind, Queens

I put him on K-something plus he was loose and playing down 2nd pair before, so I stayed with it. I know he would have beat me with trips, but it's the principle. This site just rubs it in by going quads on me once a day. (Just venting! OK, I'm done.)

End of 5/26/06 = $357.71
Gain or Loss = +$5.54

Got off to a good start at Party for a change. Moved to Poker.com and got $10 of my bonus. I then proceeded to lose it and then some. I'd actually be down for the day if it weren't for that bonus.

Congrats, 2 weeks and up over $100. You are doing pretty good. I've seen you several times at Poker.com and you seem to be playing a solid game. Sorry I don't yak much but I've been multitabling trying to get to 7000 points to see if I can get some bonus. It was posted I "only" need 7000 in here but support says I need to get more so we'll see. I assume I will see you at the Freeroll tomorrow. Good luck.

Right on, AI! Yep, I started multi-tabling, too. Hard to chat. GL on your bonus. See you Sunday.