Collusion at Live Tournaments -

So I was in a big tournament, made it to the final table, was chip leader, lost a gigantic portion of my stack in a giant hand, and was on the verge of tilt. I made a come back through some small hands, and was permenantly removed from the vicinity of tilt. Then, on a break, another player at the table came up to me while I was having my cigarrete, and told me he suspected the two opponents of chip dumping.

Villain A is big stack, Villian B is short. Villain A and B get in an isolated pot, Villain A bets, villain B raises, villain A folds, regardless of size of raise. While this could your typical tournament play (very few hands went to showdown, let alone a turn), after he pointed it out to me I noticed it kept happening, in every pot that got isolated between them. (Every one of villain B's big blinds that was folded to villain A, who was the small blind, every time a three or more way flop happened once everybody else was folded out) And it essentially kept Villain B in the game.

In situations such as this, obviously I don't have proof other than my suspicion, but with the amount of money on the line (had I outlasted Villain B, which I would have without help, my payday would have nearly doubled...)

Possibly it was me being naive, or susceptable to suggestion in an unfamiliar situation, and maybe they weren't colluding at all, but to this day I highly suspect it.

My question is this: What kind of steps can one take to report this, short of making a blatent accusation in front of the remaining players in a tournament and the final table rail, which of course you don't have anything but my word to take it on? Pull the tournament director aside and ask him to watch them? In the span of a few orbits, they could realise they're being watched and stop cheating, or their chips could be high enough to not risk being eliminated.

I'd love some information from players who have experienced this, tournament directors, or just people well versed in the makings of casinos.

Had they not been working together I would have had a much better shot at quadruplinig my money, instead of winning $10k I could have won almost $40k... And that, as they say, would have been sweet.

first off i have to say, very interesting post, it is nice to have one of these to read once in a while.

Collusion: a huge problem.

In all of my experience (ha ha) I have not come across one case of live collusion, however i have suspected in many times online.


Once you spot the pattern, watch them for about 50 hands, and if it continues it is best to report it I guess

If the event is not being filmed, you can always ask the tournament director to call a time out if it is a dire situation. I have found that direct confrontation only leads to denial, which goes around in circles.

Good luck on the felt,

Isaac

The one and only time this happened when I was playing in a live tourney, the dealer was the first to notice the collusion. She called the floor and the appropriate steps were taken to disqualify the offenders. Dealers are trained to look for this and all other forms of cheating, so I'm obviously wondering why your dealer didn't pick up on what was happening.

Well Congrats for the pay-day (I know it sucks and all that you didn't take first but 10k ain't to shabby at all)..

Now you state this is in a casino correct? Well they got camera's correct? If that's the case (I'm not trying to be smart btw)....Then you could've went to the Tourney Director or Floor person, and had them review the video of the game, during the game and then they would've noticed such actions and Disqualified both players from the game...This is just my assumptions and all but I think that's what you could've done in your case

-all you can do is go to teh tny director on the side really. They can watch... look for a pattern. They can pull the registration slips and see if the guys rae related or something for instance as well.

-I suppose, if you have the balls to do it, looking them in the eye and calling them on it might**** work. .. assuming you are correct. They might cool it. THough if you are wrong you will have a very pissed CL coming after you.

However, what is also quite possible.... is that if it was the CL and the small stack.... the CL was doing this not out of collusion, but self interest.

Did CL ever take a pot down at all vs the shortie? I ask because If I have the CL, I'm fine taking small pots off the shortest stack at the FT, but I don't want him out - so I can beat up on the rest of you.

So i might take some chips here and there... but it's in my interest to keep shortie alive as it keeps the rest of you in line because of payout jumps.


IF CL was growing his stack overall this whole time, I don't think it was chip-dumping. rather.. it was keeping a high ICM factor around to affect the rest of you as he punished the rest of the table....(All that said, he could just open fold to the guys blind also.

50/50- might be collusive, might just be smart play.... I don't know.

take aside another player and whisper together while pointing at the 2 of them..make sure at least one sees you..then whisper in the dealers ear something not related whatsoever while pointing at both of them..

/\ I like this /\

I have had this come up once during a live casino tourney. Not the exact situation, but it was collusion between three players at the table. Problem was, I was at a small Indian casino and the players and the dealer and the FLoor all knew eachother quite well. I believe one of the players in question and the Floor were related as well. Anyways, I noticed the collusion right away. All pots between the three were always checked down, and one of the players was showing her cards to the railers, who were in turn telling the other two about them.

I decided to take the "say it to m face" route and called them on it. After being told to "**** off" by one of the players, the dealer just casually told them to knock it off. They did. For about 4 hands until this came up: I was in BB (3 seat, 9 handed) w/QQ, The colluders were in the 2, 4 and 7 seats. 4 folded, 7 raised 4bb, sb (2) called as did I. Flop came K, rag, rag. 2 checked, I bet roughly 2/3pot, 7 shoved (was SS in hand). 2 snap called and I folded. Before turn was dealt 2 mucked his hand, awarding 7 the pot.

I lost it. The dealer told me to calm down, and if I had any problems, call the Floor. I did, and was told that technically what had happened was all fine and dandy, and that I should not make a big deal about nothing, or what he called "a common occourance in the game".

I promptly left my seat and went on a hunt for the casino manager. After an hour of getting the runaround I finally had a chance to speak with him face to face. In the end, since it was my word against three players, the Floor and the dealer, and since there were no cameras in the tournament room, I was SOL. The casino manager offered me my buy-in back and comped me on the buffet. Woo hoo.

I'm sure that to this day (this was roughly 8 months ago) this is still gling on. Bringing it up didn't help any.

Perhaps, unless there are cameras present, the best thing to do is to just aoid the situation the best you can until the table breaks. Or failing that, make your observations known to another dealer in the room. Just don't tell said dealer exactly who you think the players are. Since they usually rotate dealers at casino tourneys, This dealer will eventually be moved to your table, and if they see anything suspitious, they will take steps to end it. (if they are the least bit ethical I suppose).

Wow, that was really long winded.... *wheeze* *gasp*

I hate collusion, it seems wrong that its somehow easier to get people caught online than in real life.

Live tournaments are tricky, especially if they're going to be televised... once the cards are mucked there is no reviewing of hands to see what players had, unless you catch the collusion early and notify an official (very hard to do, how could you possibly know if its a coincidence or collusion at first?) no one might notice that the players are colluding.

Online poker sites can keep detailed statistics on on players at the table, you notify them of possible colluders, in an hour they could have detailed stats layed out such as how often the accused are playing together, what games they play, what hands they played with each other, what their cards were, and how they played them... thats impossible in live tournaments.

You may argue that for live tournaments that are broadcasted on TV that they can get the hands that way... but understand that none of the tournament officials are even seeing what's on the film to prevent any possible cheating going on between officials and players, mucked bluffs, times where players muck when they actually had the goods... if dirty officials work with players, it can change the pace of the tournament completely, especially at a final table.

Collusion is despicable, no one doubts that. But live it is just way too hard to catch... especially in tournaments. Maybe it would be easier to spot in a live cash game but I think the benefits of collusion at a cash game are less than a tournament or sit n go.

There certain combinations that every player needs to watch for as collusion is much more certain in the following cases. husband / wife, father/daugther, any relative, these cases are more obovious and are sometimes almost unrecognized by the pardners. A simple comment is usually enough.. If you get an explosive response be sure that the collusion was intended.

I played in the Caesars AC new poker room about a month after it opened, tournament with maybe 40 players..when we signed up (me and my brother-same last name) we asked the poker room manager to put as at different tables because we were related..fast forward we are down to 3 players and yeah we are 2 of them..crowd around the table including the poker room manager all laughing and having a grand time..we see a flop and he calls my all in because he thinks the river card is a 9 and it is actually an 8 (he has terrible vision and is in the 2 seat) loses the hand of course, and gets up saying" oh my god I thought that was a 9)..he goes out in 3rd..I go on to win the tourney...the poker room manager makes an announcement "first woman ever to win a tourney in our poker room" (big deal only open a month)...and then it happens...he starts getting a weird look on his face...gets on the phone..like 10 times..takes maybe 45 minutes before he finally gets up in my face like 3 inches away from me and says " I know you were in collusion with your brother but I am going to pay you anyway" and I say moving up even closer " I think your a fu**in asshole and there is no way I would collude in this game with anyone ever douchbag.." I take my $1800 and never ever go there again..I did complain to my host (I was a high roller back then) who was stunned and said he would look into it..never did go back there again..this game is played with all sorts of people at the same tables who know each other...be sure that when you accuse someone of something so dirty you are sure about it..

Well, there's one house that probably lost a good hunk of potential TIP from you, eh?

These two players could have agreed on a deal that they would split first and second place prize as what you have described looks like classic chip dumping. I would call the tournament director aside and point it out and discuss their betting patterns.